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Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:01 pm
by FOARP
[Copied from Slith forum]
For a while I'd been wondering why Germany's production stats were so low compared to AH, then I checked the management screen - Germany is the only country showing maintenance costs, all other countries have zero costs despite having active armies.
Playing with the latest patch. This fault appears to be there right from the start (the second picture is a load-up of the 1918 scenario). This is a bit of game-breaker, which is a pity given the way that this patch has made the game much more interesting.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 4:05 pm
by Hellfirejet
THIS IS NOT A BUG!
Demo off what happens in game when the FREE UPKEEP is set to zero.Turn 5 and all the countries are paying upkeep for every unit on the map,small Countries with very few units have much less upkeep,but large Countries like Russia,France & Britain have crippling cost,which leaves them with very little PPs to do anything with.Free Upkeep is directly linked to the number of units that can be on the map at any one time,So the lower the Free Upkeep allowance you have,means fewer units on the map,and the opposite happens,if you have a high Free Upkeep allowance,then you can have many more units on the map.
HIGHLIGHTED IN GREEN SHOWS THE UPKEEP COST OF ALL YOUR UNITS.
Note Belgium Upkeep is tiny compared to a huge Country like Russia,this is why the game can't have a one size fits all Countries allowance for UPKEEP.Each Country needs to have an allowance that is set to its individual requirements.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 7:09 pm
by operating
ORIGINAL: kirk23
THIS IS NOT A BUG!
Demo off what happens in game when the FREE UPKEEP is set to zero.Turn 5 and all the countries are paying upkeep for every unit on the map,small Countries with very few units have much less upkeep,but large Countries like Russia,France & Britain have crippling cost,which leaves them with very little PPs to do anything with.Free Upkeep is directly linked to the number of units that can be on the map at any one time,So the lower the Free Upkeep allowance you have,means fewer units on the map,and the opposite happens,if you have a high Free Upkeep allowance,then you can have many more units on the map.
HIGHLIGHTED IN GREEN SHOWS THE UPKEEP COST OF ALL YOUR UNITS.
Note Belgium Upkeep is tiny compared to a huge Country like Russia,this is why the game can't have a one size fits all Countries allowance for UPKEEP.Each Country needs to have an allowance that is set to its individual requirements.
Re: Serbain PP's
Postby operating ยป 09 May 2014 09:47
kirk23 wrote:
Hi The reason for zero maintenance is simply explained,the game from the very beginning has a one size fits all free upkeep allowance,which is nuts! Every country should have its own free upkeep allowance,and not a one size fits all,no matter what size your Nation is,for example, Russia has a huge area it needs to protect,which in turn requires many more land units,and Serbia has a much smaller border area it needs to protect,requiring fewer units in play,and yet you have a one size free upkeep allowance,you tell me how is that fair? Until each Country has its own free upkeep allowance this issue will never be fixed.
Hello Kirk,
What I have not seen yet Is: What is exactly this allotted upkeep # allowance, and how is it distributed amongst the variety of units? Does it include Naval units as well as others? Can appreciate what you know, but the rest of us don't know these parameters, also, Is the same allowance used in all scenarios?
Doing homework, Bob
Kirk,
What's not clear to me: How many units per nation get "FREE UPKEEP"?[&:] At what # of owning units does a player start paying upkeep per unit?
Bob
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:42 pm
by operating
Kirk,
Let's say My nation starts off with 10 garrisons, free of upkeep, then disband those garrisons, replace them with 10 new infantry units, now I would have 10 infantry free of upkeep, would that be a true conclusion?[&:]
Bob
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:36 am
by FOARP
I'm not sure this is an explanation because:
1) It only started with the new patch.
2) Germany still pays upkeep, all the other countries do not pay anything.
3) The upkeep allowance is only an allowance for a certain number of units. Why isn't this allowance exceeded when they have large armies?
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:42 am
by FOARP
Ah, perhaps the problem here is that the free upkeep limit was raised to accommodate all the small garrison units added in the last patch? In the game these are typically killed off fairly rapidly, but when you do so you allow larger units to be built free of maintenance?
At any rate, if this is the case it definitely is not WAD and needs to be fixed. Small garrisons should probably be set to zero maintenance and the free upkeep allowance should be lowered or zeroed-out.
EDIT: This isn't the case - Germany is still the only country that is paying maintenance/upkeep, and if I disband a small garrison the maintenance/upkeep costs stay the same.
EDIT2: For some reason France occupies a small piece of Sweden and German-occupied Riga still has a Russian battleship in it in the 1918 scenario in the 1.42 patch version. I get the feeling that the patch wasn't tested very much before release.
EDIT3: . . . but the France-in-Sweden, Russians-in-Riga problem existed in 1.30, so I guess that's OK
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 5:32 am
by FOARP
Here's what I'm talking about. Here's the Central Powers at the start of a 1918 scenario with the 1.30 patch -
As you can see it all looks exactly like what you would expect - all countries are paying significant maintenance costs to maintain their units.
Now look at the same powers in the same scenario with the 1.42 patch:
Maintenance is zero for everyone except Germany, but the size of the usable militaries of each country is about the same.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 6:26 am
by Hellfirejet
Ok here is a quick Free Upkeep example.
Lets say the free Upkeep allowance is set at 40 to start.
1 Garrison unit cost 2 to upkeep,so if you have 20 Garrison units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Garrison unit and you have 21 Garrison units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 2.This would now show a -2 on your Countries Management screen.
1 Infantry unit cost 4 to upkeep,so if you have 10 Infantry units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Infantry unit and you have 11 Infantry units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 4.This would now show a -4 on your Countries Management screen.
Now if you have 11 Infantry units in play on the map,it costs you 44 to upkeep these,if you add the 20 Garrison units also,which cost you 40 to Upkeep,it will cost you (84) you will now have a -44 on your Countries Management screen.
Each and every unit in the game costs you UPKEEP,Except Small Garrison's who at the present time cost you nothing.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 6:51 am
by Hellfirejet
Ok I have set the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE to 40. This is how it now looks in the Management screen,you now have Austria & Germany with their forces costing them upkeep,which has a negative impact on their Countries available PPs.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 7:15 am
by FOARP
Why not just re-set it to the same level as in the 1.30 patch? Seems the issue may be that it has been set way too high.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 7:44 am
by Hellfirejet
Hi FOARP,I can't mind off hand what the Free Upkeep allowance was set at 1.30 patch,but I'm play testing at the moment with it set at 30.See screenshot for Entente turn 5.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:58 am
by FOARP
I've got 1.30 installed right now, so if you let me know which one of the LUAs it's in I can have a look. Personally, I can't see what purpose this mechanism could have except allowing countries which have lost their production (e.g., Belgium post 1914 and Serbia post-1916) to keep a unit or two, and I don't see why it should be set so high - 8 to 10 PP max should be sufficient to achieve this.
If you want to boost a country's PP, isn't it much easier just to change their PP in the constructions LUA?
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 9:37 am
by operating
ORIGINAL: kirk23
Ok here is a quick Free Upkeep example.
Lets say the free Upkeep allowance is set at 40 to start.
1 Garrison unit cost 2 to upkeep,so if you have 20 Garrison units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Garrison unit and you have 21 Garrison units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 2.This would now show a -2 on your Countries Management screen.
1 Infantry unit cost 4 to upkeep,so if you have 10 Infantry units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Infantry unit and you have 11 Infantry units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 4.This would now show a -4 on your Countries Management screen.
Now if you have 11 Infantry units in play on the map,it costs you 44 to upkeep these,if you add the 20 Garrison units also,which cost you 40 to Upkeep,it will cost you (84) you will now have a -44 on your Countries Management screen.
Each and every unit in the game costs you UPKEEP,Except Small Garrison's who at the present time cost you nothing.
Kirk,
I get the concept now OK! Now my question is: What is the amount of the "FREE UPKEEP pool of points" for 1.4.2 per nation as it is now? I gather that in a future patch, that this "pool of upkeep points" will be adjusted or customized for individual nations. Say; 10 free upkeep points for Belgium, 40 free upkeep points for Russia, and adjusted for each individual nation till the balance of free upkeep points makes sense. That way PP will not have to be adjusted to give nations an unfair advantage,. Should be interesting end results.
Just thinking, Bob
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:17 am
by FOARP
If you want to give individual countries more PP, why not just do that directly?
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:28 am
by Hellfirejet
Yip I have increased the Countries PPs,to allow for the unit costs.I'm working on a bug fix patch at the moment,and this issue will be fixed when it gets released.[;)]
The Free Upkeep is now set at 30 it was 90 with this patch.
I have also reduced the Lab cost from 4 back to 3.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:41 am
by Hellfirejet
ORIGINAL: operating
ORIGINAL: kirk23
Ok here is a quick Free Upkeep example.
Lets say the free Upkeep allowance is set at 40 to start.
1 Garrison unit cost 2 to upkeep,so if you have 20 Garrison units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Garrison unit and you have 21 Garrison units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 2.This would now show a -2 on your Countries Management screen.
1 Infantry unit cost 4 to upkeep,so if you have 10 Infantry units on the map it will cost you 40 to Upkeep them,if you add another Infantry unit and you have 11 Infantry units on the map,this exceeds the FREE UPKEEP ALLOWANCE BY 4.This would now show a -4 on your Countries Management screen.
Now if you have 11 Infantry units in play on the map,it costs you 44 to upkeep these,if you add the 20 Garrison units also,which cost you 40 to Upkeep,it will cost you (84) you will now have a -44 on your Countries Management screen.
Each and every unit in the game costs you UPKEEP,Except Small Garrison's who at the present time cost you nothing.
Kirk,
I get the concept now OK! Now my question is: What is the amount of the "FREE UPKEEP pool of points" for 1.4.2 per nation as it is now? I gather that in a future patch, that this "pool of upkeep points" will be adjusted or customized for individual nations. Say; 10 free upkeep points for Belgium, 40 free upkeep points for Russia, and adjusted for each individual nation till the balance of free upkeep points makes sense. That way PP will not have to be adjusted to give nations an unfair advantage,. Should be interesting end results.
Just thinking, Bob
Hi Bob, yes to me that makes perfect sense,but the game has been put together so that things are abstracted more,with the easy option off one size fits all,which I personally do not agree with.So the easiest option is to revert the Free Upkeep allowance back to the level when the game was first released,but when the game was first released,there were few units on the map to play with,there was even the 1 Battlefleet for Germany,Britain,Russia etc,which was soon changed.[;)]
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:12 am
by Hellfirejet
I will be play testing for many hours today,but I thought I would let you get a peek at the new in game settings.
FREE UPKEEP = 30
LAB UPKEEP = 3
All countries have increased PPs, especially their Capitals,making them even more important to hold on too.
Photo shows Central powers very early in the war.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 11:38 am
by operating
ORIGINAL: kirk23
I will be play testing for many hours today,but I thought I would let you get a peek at the new in game settings.
FREE UPKEEP = 30
LAB UPKEEP = 3
All countries have increased PPs, especially their Capitals,making them even more important to hold on too.
Photo shows Central powers very early in the war.
Kirk,
Point of interest: The English and Russians have 5 capitals each, Do they
all receive increased PP? Just taking note of the greater number of Entente capitals, early and later in the war with all getting increases, concerned about over production. I'm sure you have a "Method to the Madness".
Bob
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 12:27 pm
by FOARP
Hmm . . . in 1.30 it was 10 (it's the gameplay.FreeUpkeep attribute in game.lua, right?) This seems a more sensible amount given that the statistic was seemingly only there to allow countries that lost their cities to maintain a small army.
Lowering it to 30 is definitely an improvement, but it should probably still be lower. In your screen-shot you can see that Austria-Hungary is gaining 27 PP every turn compared to Germany's 39 PP, but Germany has almost twice as much industry, and this difference seems to only be due to the free upkeep.
I look forward to seeing the next patch.
RE: Germany the only country paying maintenance
Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:46 pm
by Hellfirejet
ORIGINAL: FOARP
In your screen-shot you can see that Austria-Hungary is gaining 27 PP every turn compared to Germany's 39 PP, but Germany has almost twice as much industry, and this difference seems to only be due to the free upkeep.
I look forward to seeing the next patch.
The difference between Austria & Germany PP every turn,is because Germany has many more units on the map,Germany has 31 units on the map,not counting Small Garrison's,while Austria has 17 units on the map[;)]
