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Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:23 am
by Platon
In Barbarossa, Turn 2, the German 172.5mm field artillery (5 attack factors) got improved with the benefits of HQ Bock using an Offensive Chit in a Land offensive to bombard Smolensk. I expected to see 6 die rolls, two on each of the three Russian land units in the city, due to RAC 16.3 (field artillery receives an extra die roll during ground strike). In fact there were only three rolls, one on each target, disorganizing all three units with 8, 1, 3 respectivly. That doesn't look like it should be according to the rules, doesn't it?
Edit: In the same attack the Germans later on used the benefits of a German Engineer Unit and helped a Corps across the river hexside in the Combat Resolution Phase. The attack resulted in the loss of one unit for the Germans. Despite RAC 22.4., which states that an Engineer unit has always to be taken as first loss when used, I was able to destroy another unit and could disorganize the Engineer Unit instead.
Also, in the same combat resolution phase 4 German Armoured Corps attacked across river hexsides into open terrain.
Despite doubling the corps factors back to normal strenght with the help of Bocks Offenive Chit the Blitz Bonus Modifier (usin 2D10 CRT) shown in the Main Form stayed at +2 (4 armoured Cors halved) and did not change to +4 (4 armoured Corps halved and then doubled back to normal). Is that as it should work?
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 7:39 am
by Courtenay
ORIGINAL: Platon
In Barbarossa, Turn 2, the German 172.5mm field artillery (5 attack factors) got improved with the benefits of HQ Bock using an Offensive Chit in a Land offensive to bombard Smolensk. I expected to see 6 die rolls, two on each of the three Russian land units in the city, due to RAC 16.3 (field artillery receives an extra die roll during ground strike). In fact there were only three rolls, one on each target, disorganizing all three units with 8, 1, 3 respectivly. That doesn't look like it should be according to the rules, doesn't it?
No. It looks like the artillery factors were doubled, not that you got two rolls. This is not good, because there is no workaround; there is no chance of a miss.
Edit: In the same attack the Germans later on used the benefits of a German Engineer Unit and helped a Corps across the river hexside in the Combat Resolution Phase. The attack resulted in the loss of one unit for the Germans. Despite RAC 22.4., which states that an Engineer unit has always to be taken as first loss when used, I was able to destroy another unit and could disorganize the Engineer Unit instead.
This is also a bug, but here the workaround is simple: kill the engineer unit yourself.
Also, in the same combat resolution phase 4 German Armoured Corps attacked across river hexsides into open terrain.
Despite doubling the corps factors back to normal strenght with the help of Bocks Offenive Chit the Blitz Bonus Modifier (usin 2D10 CRT) shown in the Main Form stayed at +2 (4 armoured Cors halved) and did not change to +4 (4 armoured Corps halved and then doubled back to normal). Is that as it should work?
This is odd. It should have been +4. Neither river nor doubling should have had any effect on the blitz bonus. There wasn't a defending MECH or ARM, was there?
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 8:44 am
by Platon
The target hex contained 2 ARM + 1 MEC Div, all disrupted.
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:31 pm
by Courtenay
In that case, the attackers should have had a -1 blitz bonus (i.e a penalty), unless they had some MECHs or divisions you didn't tell us about: 4x+1 for the attacking ARM corps, 2x-2 for the defending ARM corps, and 1x-1 for the defending MECH division. The fact that the defenders are disrupted does not affect their modifiers. (Beyond the +5 you get for having two and a half flipped defending units, of course.)
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 4:41 pm
by paulderynck
Blitz boni are halved across rivers normally, but the FAQ ruled they can be doubled back to normal when an O-chit is used. This was an extremely controversial ruling because FREX you don't double the boni above normal with an O-chit when there is no river. (The ruling is changed again in RAW8 such that the only units that would get full boni - even when their combat factors are doubled - are those assisted by engineers.)
As far as the defender's boni, it sounds to me that the disruptions cancel the defender's boni and it all nets to zero, so only the attacker's boni end up applying to the combat.
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:51 am
by Platon
That seems in fact what the programm calculated. No change to Blitzbonus despite doubling. So no bug but RAC. Personally it seems not logical to me that when the combat factors are back to normal the boni aren't, but so be it.
Courtenay was also right in the fact that in the end it turned out there was no Blitzbonus after all as the Germans hadn't more ARM corps as Russia and so the latter where able to choose an Assault! Ce la vie. Guderian was fired as Commander of the 2nd Panzer Group as consequence.
RE: Artillery Groundstrike
Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:57 pm
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Platon
In Barbarossa, Turn 2, the German 172.5mm field artillery (5 attack factors) got improved with the benefits of HQ Bock using an Offensive Chit in a Land offensive to bombard Smolensk. I expected to see 6 die rolls, two on each of the three Russian land units in the city, due to RAC 16.3 (field artillery receives an extra die roll during ground strike). In fact there were only three rolls, one on each target, disorganizing all three units with 8, 1, 3 respectivly. That doesn't look like it should be according to the rules, doesn't it?
Edit: In the same attack the Germans later on used the benefits of a German Engineer Unit and helped a Corps across the river hexside in the Combat Resolution Phase. The attack resulted in the loss of one unit for the Germans. Despite RAC 22.4., which states that an Engineer unit has always to be taken as first loss when used, I was able to destroy another unit and could disorganize the Engineer Unit instead.
Also, in the same combat resolution phase 4 German Armoured Corps attacked across river hexsides into open terrain.
Despite doubling the corps factors back to normal strenght with the help of Bocks Offenive Chit the Blitz Bonus Modifier (usin 2D10 CRT) shown in the Main Form stayed at +2 (4 armoured Cors halved) and did not change to +4 (4 armoured Corps halved and then doubled back to normal). Is that as it should work?
I suspect that you might have missed seeing a die roll. The program doesn't bother rolling the die again if the first die roll disorganizes the unit. So if the die rolls were, say, 8, 1, 3, 5, then all would have been correct. The first two die rolls would have been on the first unit, and the last 2 die rolls on the last two units. Another possibility is that one of the units was already disorganized (a reserve unit that arrived on the first impulse of the first turn perhaps?). Then the die rolls that you reported would also have been correct.
That code has received a ton of testing - which is why I hazard my guesses in the above paragraph.
But, as always, if the problem can be reproduced, please tell us how so we can fix it.