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Hi,

i am playing for 2nd time DaBigbabes Guadalcanal scenario. I like it as the map is bigger that stock scenario and gives player more variabilty.

To me it seems that naval bombers accuracy is very poor. I have experienced three large carrier battles and Allies failed to score any hits in them. Experience is around 70.


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Here is the first combat, i played IJN

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 02, 42
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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 110,134

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 49

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20
SBD-3 Dauntless x 33
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 destroyed, 11 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
BB Yamato
CVL Ryujo
CV Shokaku
BB Mutsu

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Tainan Ku S-2 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Munda at 110,134

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 69 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 35

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
SBD-3 Dauntless x 33
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 5 destroyed, 8 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
BB Yamato
BB Mutsu
CV Zuikaku
CVL Ryujo

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
13 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
Tainan Ku S-2 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 60 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers


68 bombers released they ordonance and scored no hits.





AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 30, 42

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Here is the second, i play Allies
Morning Air attack on TF, near Koumac at 115,156

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 103
A6M2-N Rufe x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
SBD-3 Dauntless x 51
TBF-1 Avenger x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 4 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 30 destroyed, 4 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
CV Zuikaku
BB Hiei
BB Kirishima

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
1st Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 35 on standby, 0 scrambling)
17 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
45 planes vectored on to bombers
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers

Dont have so much trouble with these results strike was poorly escorted.
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Here is the third, i play Allies. My opponent has also trouble to get hits (although my experience when playing IJN in this scen was that hit rate was poor but not catastrophic) and replaced most of his bombers by fighters on decks
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 30, 42
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 96,129

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 171

Allied aircraft
F4F-3P Wildcat x 7
F4F-4 Wildcat x 49
SBD-3 Dauntless x 81
TBF-1 Avenger x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3P Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 15 destroyed, 11 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 11 destroyed, 7 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
CVL Ryujo
CV Zuikaku
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 1
CVL Zuiho
CA Tone
CA Myoko
CL Oi

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
6 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
1 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
9 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Chitose Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
16 planes vectored on to bombers
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
Kanoya Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
CII-1 Daitai/A with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
CII-1 Daitai/C with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (12 airborne, 36 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
DI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
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68 bombers droped boms/torpedoes, with no effect.

So i have seen over 150 bombers attacking IJN CVs and no CV was even damaged. What am i supposed to do as the Allies? It seems to me that if IJN has CAP Allied planes cant hurt it. That, combined with poor night exp of Allied ships and faulty US subs torpedoes leave me with very few options in this scenario.

At what altitude are your Dive bombers set for their mission? Remember, to dive bomb they must have their mission altitude set between 10,000 - 15,000 feet.

That's the first thing I would look at....otherwise - that's a question for Symon.

B

Looks like the altitudes were fine, as the TB's released at 200' and the DB's released between 2000 and 4000'.

In the first report, bad weather,they mostly target BB and you got unlucky.
In the second report, bad weather and bombers got decimated anyway
In the last, severe storm, allmost no chance to hit for the US.
In all the report, the japanese task force look huge so the AA is really disturbing the pilot trying to aim. If task force are in the same hex, others task force provide aa to the task force attacked. In this case the AA values is probably really high, even if it's jap it hurts.


Retry if you get a clear sky or with some cloud then you will get some hit.

edit : here is my test with better conditions

Morning Air attack on TF, near Auki at 118,134

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 63 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20
SBD-3 Dauntless x 30
TBF-1 Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 7 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CL Nagara, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CA Suzuya
BB Hiei

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
11 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb
15 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
8 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
EII-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
EI-1 Daitai with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CL Nagara
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Zuikaku

2000 - 4000 means they were glide bombing. 1000 - 3000 is dive bombing. Check your mission altitude it is too high. It must be between 10k - 15k ft.

Bombers were on naval attack 10.000 feets, in all cases.

Even in first report, where i was IJN and thus benefiting from poor bombing i wasnt much happy. If you play simulation of WW2 pacific game, you are attacked by 70 bombers with good crews and escape unscratched, you feel it isnt right.

Gaspote, i would accept severe storms explanation for 3rd report if it affected CAP as well. But the A2A losses were 109 vs. 2! I think its as hard to FIND and SHOOT DOWN enemy plane in bad weather as to hit enemy ship with bomb. Especially for Japan with no Radar and poor (non existent) CAP direction. I am pissed of as I think i launched decent 170 planes strike, achieved nothing and got massacred. And unrealistic tactic of my opponent who loads his CVs with fighters only, puts them on 100 percent CAP and lurks around my bases to provoke an attack prevails.

ORIGINAL: Insano

2000 - 4000 means they were glide bombing. 1000 - 3000 is dive bombing. Check your mission altitude it is too high. It must be between 10k - 15k ft.

I think DBs don't glide bomb at all now. The better the experience usually the lower they drop, but it varies.

What was the experience level of the dive bombers? I believe low experience dive bomber pilots glide bomb.

Additionally what did the air unit commanders look like? Poor commanders can affect combat.

Bill

I didn't notice the rainy weather for the three attacks when I first commented above, so I am inclined to agree with Gaspote in that the weather was probably the culprit.

ORIGINAL: Insano

2000 - 4000 means they were glide bombing. 1000 - 3000 is dive bombing. Check your mission altitude it is too high. It must be between 10k - 15k ft.

This is not correct.

Aircraft who dive bomb will be recorded on the CR as delivering their payload at 1k or 2k or 3k or 4k altitude.
Aircraft who glide bomb will be recorded on the CR as delivering their payload at 2k or 3k or 4k or 5k altitude.

From the CR it is therefore only possible to be definitive that an aircraft dive bombed if it's altitude was 1k, or that it glide bombed if it's altitude was 5k. It is not possible to be definitive as to the delivery profile if the CR records the altitude to be 2k or 3k or 4k.

Alfred

In the first report i played opposite side but my opponent never bothered with micromanagement and i am sure that stats from start of the scenario are valid:
1st dive bombers group - exp 65, commander has ldr 67 inst 75 air 72 agg 83
2nd dive bombers group - exp 63, commander has ldr 67 inst 77 air 85 agg 84
3rd dive bombers group - exp 66, commander has ldr 58 inst 74 air 59 agg 83
4th dive bombers group - exp 56, commander has ldr 61 inst 73 air 68 agg 77


In 3rd report
1st dive bombers group - exp 66, commander has ldr 56 inst 74 air 67 agg 78
2nd dive bombers group - exp 59, commander has ldr 62 inst 82 air 55 agg 43
3rd dive bombers group - exp 65, commander has ldr 58 inst 74 air 59 agg 83
4th dive bombers group - exp 72, commander has ldr 61 inst 73 air 68 agg 77
5th dive bombers group - exp 63, commander has ldr 73 inst 66 air 26 agg 39
6th dive bombers group - exp 56, commander has ldr 61 inst 55 air 53 agg 50

I accept commander of the 5th group is poor (smaller group from Wasp), but rest is ok-good i think.

There might be additional factors into play that are not obvious from the CR, but the two blaring at me are:

1) Weather (very important factor, and you had bad conditions in two attacks and horrible conditions in the third and largest strike).
2) The Japanese CAP had an initial 5-10k alt advantage engaging the bombers and 3-8k advantage against the escorts, as your setting was 10k and the IJN setting was 15-20k. This lead to a lot of losses/dmg - in the two initial examples +50% - and so to a high attrition rate before the attack run which further deteriorates hit probability.

The combination of the above is probably enough to explain the results.

Thanks for all replies. I run some tests and bombing works. The results of bombing are very bad if many bombers are attacked by CAP. I think there was some bad luck (dice rolls) in my PBEM for Allies too in reports above. Especially the first one, where i see really no reason for such poor result (exp was good, leaders were excellent).

It would be reasonable if weather also impacted ability of CAP to intercept the raid, but in this stage such changes of the game cant be expected.