Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

ORIGINAL: Curious

I hope that the Scottish voters think with their intellects and not just their emotions on Thursday. Splitting off into a separate little country will be a hugh mistake for both Scotland and what's left of the UK. The rest of the world will be watching.

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Curious

I hope that the Scottish voters think with their intellects and not just their emotions on Thursday. Splitting off into a separate little country will be a hugh mistake for both Scotland and what's left of the UK. The rest of the world will be watching.

Can I suggest you are making the easy mistake of assuming anyone who shares your view is of course completely rational and anyone who doesn't must be working off emotion.

It really isn't that easy.

Crudely you can divide opinion in Scotland into 3 groups. One, lets say 20% believe that the only valid state of affairs is an independent Scotland. They don't care about anything else, its all secondary. Another, lets again say 20%, believe that there never can be an independent Scotland. Now in your categorisation, these people are voting with their 'intellects' and are rational.

Well? We had the joys of the Orange Order prancing around Edinburgh on Saturday urging a no vote. Why? Well a complex (& toxic) cocktail of fear of 'papacy' and that this would undermine the 1688 Settlement, as well as arguments derived from the more obscurantist bits of Calvinist Theology. You can rest assured, that chunk of the no vote ain't voting with their 'intellect'.

The rest of us, we're voting for what we believe is best for Scotland. That ranges from accepting the sort of argument that Warspite1 puts forward above to seeing, via independence, the door to a social democratic/socialist future. Now you may think this is wrong, but rest assured its no lack of 'intellect' gone into that argument.

If you look here, you'll see a set of policy papers prepared by the Jimmy Reid Institute (also known as the CommonWeal). There open in that they see independence as the opportunity to create a socially inclusive Scotland (as I say, this is not to say they are right, but they sure as hell have thought about it). Another set, here here by the Scotland Institute is more ambigious on the importance of independence but it too has put a lot of effort into an intellectual case either for Scotland post-independence or the future constitutional arrangements with the rest of the UK (& yes, I must confess, I am involved with it).

So please, its not 'intellect=no' (ie agree with you), emotion = yes (ie must disagree with you), there's no shortage of both on both sides of the debate.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?

I always find the thread locks over "POLITICS" so odd. Since "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means", I don't understand how we can even talk of war.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?

I always find the thread locks over "POLITICS" so odd. Since "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means", I don't understand how we can even talk of war.

warspite1

Thanks for that von Clausewitz [;)]

Love this interchange - especially when he calls him von [:D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HnaBdYAqBw

ORIGINAL: BASB

How is this going to work the vote that is? Majority rules, 75% of the vote or the majority of voting electorates?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

Robert, I feel the same way you do! I also feel the same way that Paul McCartney does about Ireland. Peace Brother!

Patrick

Well that is a subject definitely best kept off the forum. Suffice to say that whatever decisions were/weren't made, it was a case of politicians dealing with a situation handed down from history - with polar opposites to contend with. I am quite sure there are very few, if indeed any, on either side of the religious (Catholic/Protestant) and nationalist (Irish/Northern Irish/British) divide that don't wish that things would have been dealt with differently by all parties. Sad thing of course is that there is little likelihood of agreement on how it should have been handled, even if we could turn back time to put things right [:(]

All we can do is move on. BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent. My little warspites are being brought up in the Catholic faith. There should be no reason we can't all get along - well except for Mr and Mrs W of course, there is no hope for peace there as we fight like cat and dog [:D].

ORIGINAL: loki100

And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

I'm really sorry but this is not true. Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, what we get (the Barnett formula) is far less than we contribute.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent ... we fight like cat and dog [:D].

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent ... we fight like cat and dog [:D].

Cat and Prot? [:)]