Matrix Games Forums

New scenario for testing... not sure if something like this has already been done, but I haven't seen a ton of Korean War scenarios.

Scenario constructed in Build 554. I think the events work as designed, and since my first run-through was a disaster, I think the defenses are working too.

Let me know what you think! The difficulty may need some tuning.

Scenario Description:

February 1952

The Bridges at Toko-Ri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridges_at_Toko-Ri) was based on author James Michener's writings as an embedded reporter on USS Essex (CV 9) and USS Valley Forge (CV 45) in the winter of 1952. This scenario is loosely based on the plotline of the movie, and while there's a lot less Grace Kelly, there's still a teak deck and plenty of early jets wearing Navy Blue.

Take command of Task Force 77.9, centered on the USS Essex, and execute defense suppression strikes in support of a US Air Force attack on two railroad bridges.

Total Units: 9 Ships, 108 Aircraft
Scenario Time: 13 hours


EDIT: Release 5b is the latest and greatest.

One of the first books I read on the Korean War, waaaaay back in High school, excellent, but never did like the movie - too much Grace Kelly - well it was great on 'mute'[:D].  I can confirm that the defences work well [:(].  13 AC down in the attack with a few AAA sites to show for it[X(].  I will go back in and try again but all seems to be working well.
 
B
 
SIDE: North Korean AAA - Bridge Units
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
8x 100mm KS-19
2x Vehicle (Fire Can [SON-9])
5x Binoculars (Visual)
27x 37mm/63 M1939
14x 14.5mm/73 Twin

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
530x 37mm/63 M1939 [5 rnds]
761x 100mm KS-19 Frag
493x 14.5mm/73 Twin Burst [20 rnds]
233x 12.7mm/50 MG Burst [160 rnds]
 
SIDE: North Korean Infrastructure
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
 
SIDE: Chinese Air Force
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
5x MiG-15bis B Fagot
1x Il-28 Beagle

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
19x 37mm N-37 Burst [10 rnds]
15x 23mm NR-23 x 3 Burst [60 rnds]
2x 23mm Twin Burst [20 rnds]
 
SIDE: 452nd Bomb Wing
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
 
SIDE: Task Force 77.9
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x F9F-2B Panther
6x F2H-2B Banshee
7x F4U-4B Corsair

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
60x 20mm Mk12 x 2 [50 rnds]
12x Mk81 250lb LDGP
56x ZUNI 127mm HVAR Rocket
6x M64 500lb GPB
6x Mk77 500lb Incendiary Bomb
 
SIDE: North Korean AAA - General
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
17x 100mm KS-19 Frag
16x 37mm/63 M1939 [5 rnds]
 
SIDE: TF77 Support Units
===========================================================
LOSSES:
-------------------------------

EXPENDITURES:
------------------

Was that at scenario end? The bombers (A-26s from Pusan) are supposed to launch somewhere around 0900Z and go after the bridges. You should have time for two or three sorties to go after the AAA before they get there.

No - I called it quits after the first run. Will play through on the next go.

B

I did the same on my first run through.... lost 1/3 of my forces knocking out two 100mm batteries, it didn't look too likely I'd succeed. I thinned out the light AAA quite a bit, it may need a bit more thinning. Let me know.

Second run.  Had a batch of bombers on the tail of the Recon flight at 2K AGL,  got off a few shots but things went badly when the recon flight got hosed.  I do think that it needs a bit more thinning, I lost 9 birds in about 90 seconds.  Maybe my altitude is too low.  Some of the shots are getting a 10 or even 15% Ph, most are still at 1% but when each AC is facing a wall of lead - odds are a few 1's will get rolled.
 
I am on the road today and won't be able to give it another go until the weekend.  There must be a magic altitude sweet spot, just need to find it.
 
B

I tried it and got slaughtered as well and while it may be my approach I suspect that the flak density is perhaps too great.

Suggest perhaps deleting the fire control radars from the 100mm batteries and perhaps thinning out the opposition a bit. That's a massive amount of AAA crammed into just about three square kilometres.

Good scenario brief and set-up, I can scratch my under-construction version with a clear conscience.

Need to respectfully disagree with Gunner98 in that I quite like the movie, most flicks with Fredrick March are worth watching and one can never see too much Grace Kelly before she became Empress of Monaco. Have you seen the narrative of the real attacks that Michener based the book on?

USS Bennington

-C

An excellent read - I recall the Operation Pinhead event in the book - truly idiotic. In the article LCdr Everding mentions 56 guns, mostly 37mm (A close study of the aerial photos confirmed the 56 guns. Eleven radar sites controlled the guns. They were mainly 37 MM with some five inch heavies) . A quick count in the editor reveals over 70; the 100mm are about 4" guns, I think the 130mm would be the more accurate choice - not sure if that is good or bad.  I think the mix of 37 & 23 mm looks about right, just a tad too many and very concentrated.  Not sure we could replicate the interesting SEAD trick they use - 2000lb bomb on air-burst! Gotcha.

Regarding the 'disagreement' - not like that hasn't happened in the past [;)].  I will grant you that Grace Kelly is not hard on the eyes - but 50's & 60's war movies seemed to dilute what would otherwise be a great movie by inserting a totally irrelevant (and time & space wise - impossible) love story - I would prefer leaving the love story for the 'chick flicks' where I can safely fall asleep and not worry about missing some great footage [:D]

B

The movie is pretty faithful to the book though, even with the mushy bits. I had actually re-watched a couple of weeks ago and got the book, which I had never read before, from the local library just before the scenario was uploaded here. Odd how things like that happen sometimes. Was actually surprised that the book is so short; more a novella than a novel.

The scenario currently has 84 AAA weapons in 22-units defending the targets, given the resources available it's a tough cookie. Am going to try some targeting tests to see if HE, napalm or rockets do better against mobile units as they have zero DP and presumably CMANO's damage model handles them differently than fixed facilities that do have non-zero DP values.

-C

OK, I replayed it too and got summarily slaughtered. Here's Release 1.
- Reduced AAA at the bridge, particularly the big radar-guided stuff
- Increased offensive air (1 "Maint Unavail" per sqdn, vs. 2)
- Decreased scoring penalty for losing USN aircraft.

If I went too far the other direction, please let me know.

Yeah, I saw that outstanding writeup when I was doing research to build the scenario. I used the 100-mm KS-19 because that writeup was the only reference I saw to "five inch" AAA in the North Korean or Chinse inventories in 1952. The game doesn't even show the 130-mm KS-30 entering Soviet service until 1955. I can't guarantee that's accurate, but it's what I went with.

I've got to rewatch the movie, it's been a very long time. And I've never read the book, which needs to be remedied.

I tried the latest version and my Corsairs were wiped out (11-lost) and I also lost 5-Banshees and a Panther recce version. For that got a Disaster result.

Most of the Corsairs were lost on SEAD Patrol missions where they tended to fly around without attacking the identified AAA but making great targets of themselves. Probably the most effective weapons were the Zuni rockets but the M77 napalm seemed to work fine as well. There was a need for a second strike but not enough aircraft were available. Recommend that the entire air group be at the disposal of the Player even if the other two squadron's aircraft have no initial loadout so that using them on a second strike becomes possible. I realize that in the movie and book the assets were limited but I'm not convinced that the scenario Player can do the job with the forces at hand.

Recommendation at least some of the AAA should be initially visible as the orders seem to imply that the target area has been scouted in advance. High altitude recon flights generally fail to spot the AAA and low- high speed runs get shot up.

This situation is a great example of why SEAD and standoff weapons go well together.

Thanks for the scenario.

-C

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

I tried the latest version and my Corsairs were wiped out (11-lost) and I also lost 5-Banshees and a Panther recce version. For that got a Disaster result.

Most of the Corsairs were lost on SEAD Patrol missions where they tended to fly around without attacking the identified AAA but making great targets of themselves. Probably the most effective weapons were the Zuni rockets but the M77 napalm seemed to work fine as well. There was a need for a second strike but not enough aircraft were available. Recommend that the entire air group be at the disposal of the Player even if the other two squadron's aircraft have no initial loadout so that using them on a second strike becomes possible. I realize that in the movie and book the assets were limited but I'm not convinced that the scenario Player can do the job with the forces at hand.

Recommendation at least some of the AAA should be initially visible as the orders seem to imply that the target area has been scouted in advance. High altitude recon flights generally fail to spot the AAA and low- high speed runs get shot up.

This situation is a great example of why SEAD and standoff weapons go well together.

Thanks for the scenario.

-C

I finally finished playing it through this weekend with a severe micro-management frame of mind... I got an "Average" (-20 points) and lost about 75% of my assigned forces... 8 Corsairs, 6 Banshees, and 9 Panthers (8 fighter, 1 recce). Apparently I built a monster, and yes, several times I was wishing for a couple Maverick missiles.

I really like the idea of making the Skyraider squadron available in Reserve status at scenario start. I also like making some of the (heavy) AAA visible at the start. RE Disaster scoring.... you lose points for losing aircraft, but you don't actually gain points until the A-26s hit the bridges. I feel like that's realistic... no one cares how many AAA guns get killed, as long as the bombers get through. But even if you take losses, you can still get a 'win'.

Note to the Devs: I'll post a separate thread, but something screwy is going on with the fuel calculations for the A-26s. There's two three-ship formations that launch, but sometimes one of the three breaks off early for Bingo fuel, and crashes partway home (which, in this case, is also a scoring penalty).

A couple tactics I found worked:
- Keep everyone below 6000 feet at all times... the Chinese radars never spot you, and the Chinese fighters never come hunting. Half my losses were trying to dogfight MiG-15s in Panthers and Banshees. You will eventually have to deal with some of them (they go after the A-26s) but not in the early stages.
- Use the Recce Panthers at min altitude, mil power, a single pass over each AAA area to find/locate as many emplacements as possible. No second passes though, those get you very killed (see below).
- Focus on the 100-mm sites first, once you ID them (that's what the Recce Panthers are for) they carry the radars and make it MUCH more likely your strike forces get spotted and engaged
- Launch attack aircraft in two-ship formations... send them roaring over the target in trail (~2nm separation) at mil power, min-release altitude for whatever weapon they're carrying. The first plane will nail down target location, the second one can release. Then they both haul butt and get back to the ship.
- ABSOLUTELY NO REATTACKS, most of my strike aircraft losses were on a reattack. The OODA Loop for most of the AAA is ~20 seconds... ie, it takes them 20 seconds to recognize a potential target and start firing. At mil power and if you use terrain masking well, it limits exposure. But once you're spotted the first time the OODA Loop no longer applies, and as soon as you're in range you'll get lit up.
- I broke loose one of my destroyers to hit the one AAA site that's (barely) in range... get the DD (or several) in position, send over a recon flight, and let rip. There's no scoring penalty for 127-mm shells, and that's one AAA site your strike pilots don't even have to worry about.

As I said, I like your suggestions, and I'll work them in. I'm off work this week... I'll try to get an update out ASAP.

Too much Grace Kelly?? What is wrong with you people? You guys probably want more Mickey Rooney too. [:D]

I'll give this a try tonight.

Try this one instead, I incorporated Randomizer's suggestions.

- Some AAA is auto-detected
- VF-54 Hell's Angels (AD-2 Skyraiders) are now available for a second wave, ready in 4 hours.

Also updated to latest DB and Build 573 (1.05.2 Beta)

Any update on this?

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Any update on this?

I expect that at least some Scenario Authors are waiting for the next update so they can rebuild them before posting final versions of their work.

-C

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Any update on this?

I expect that at least some Scenario Authors are waiting for the next update so they can rebuild them before posting final versions of their work.

Nope, real life keeps getting in the way. Work, 10-month old daughter, occasional date night with the wife. CMANO gets what's left.

I did play it through with the updates. I think it's ok, not great. The Skyraiders get slaughtered, they're too slow for low level attacks. The jets at mil throttle/min altitude are pretty effective. On my run through, I killed all the AAA with minimal losses, then spent a few hours waiting for the A-26 missions to trigger. In the meantime, my CAP kept getting shot down by probing Beagles. It was bad enough that if I'd had time, I was going to build "what the heck is going on" test between a half dozen Il-28s and a squadron of F9Fs.

Anyone else play through the latest version?

Great scenario, sad ending to the film!

ORIGINAL: sprsc

Great scenario, sad ending to the film!

Glad you liked it! Randomizer, Gunner, have you guys been able to try it again?

@CF_Dallas: Sorry, stupid real life is interfering with CMANO time. No drama, just busy. I hope to get to it this coming weekend but I got a chance to glance at the latest scenario version in the editor and it looks pretty solid and worthy of going gold.

Zuni rockets and micromanaging the strike aircraft are the key to SEAD without slaughter in this situation, I think.

-C