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T-72 and Soviet MBT
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:34 pm
by Alex1812
According the game data file, T-72B has the same type of fire control like T-64 and T-80, but it's not true.
T-72 is the low cost tank for large war and all its models have simplified fire control system:
T-72 - optical rangefinder (DPT-2-49) + simple stabilizer (2E28М)
T-72A - laser rangefinder (DPT-K1) + simple stabilizer (2E28М)
T-72B - laser rangefinder (DPT-K1) + improved stabilizer (2E42-2) + simple fire control (1A40-1) + ATGM (9K120)
T-72B1 - like T-72B without ATGM
T-72BM - like T-72B
So, as for me, the FC and Stab values must be decreased slightly. I have tried to collect data from all Soviet MBT fire control systems in one table for comparison:
Code: Select all
FC RangeF Stab ATGM
T-64 - TPD-43B 2E28M -
T-64A - TPD-2-49 2E28M -
T-64B 1A33 1G42 2E26M/2E42 9K112
T-64B1 1A33 1G42 2E26M/2E42 -
T-64BV 1A33 1G42 2E42 9K112
T-72 - TPD-2-49 2E28M -
T-72A - TPD-K1 2E28M -
T-72B 1A40 TPD-K1 2E42 9K120
T-72B1 1A40 TPD-K1 2E42 -
T-72BM 1A40 TPD-K1 2E42 9K120
T-80 - TPD-2-49 2E28M -
T-80B 1A33 1G42 2E26М 9K112
T-80U 1A45 1G46 2E42 9K119
Code: Select all
*
TPD-43B, TPD-2-49 - optical rangefinders
TPD-K1, 1G42, 1G46 - laser rangefinders
1A33 - normal fire control system
1A40 - simple fire control system
1A45 - improved fire control system
**
Stabilizer ranking from worst to best:
2E28M, 2E26M, 2E42
***
T-64B have 2E26M stab before 1979 and 2E42 after
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:43 pm
by CapnDarwin
Alex, Since I'm doing some data fixes for 2.09 I'll check on the T-72 values again compared to the 64/80 series in my Jane's books. One issue is with a limited range of values in the data you may be looking at a low value X versus a high value X, but still an X at the end of the day.
Thanks for the info.
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:11 pm
by Tophat1815
Seem to recall that the T-72 was an export version MBT sent to various WP allies and client states. Now I have to dig into my books and site some valid references.
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:39 am
by Alex1812
append additional information about fire control and stabs in first post
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:09 am
by CapnDarwin
Thanks Alex. I got a quick look at this last night. I will work it more tonight.
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:12 am
by Tophat1815
Alex,
Where did you pull your information from?
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:53 am
by Alex1812
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Alex,Where did you pull your information from?
I get information from several detailed books:
1. S. Ustiancev, V. Kolmakov. Combat vehicles from Uralvagonzavod. Tank T-72. 2004 (in Russian)
2. M. Baryatinsky. Main battle tank T-72. 2008 (in Russian)
3. V. Borzenko. Main battle tank T-64. 2012 (in Russian)
4. V. Borzenko. Tank T-80. 2012 (in Russian)
and other open source [:)]
RE: T-72 data
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:02 pm
by Tophat1815
ORIGINAL: Alex1812
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Alex,Where did you pull your information from?
I get information from several detailed books:
1. S. Ustiancev, V. Kolmakov. Combat vehicles from Uraloagonzavod. Tank T-72. 2004 (in Russian)
2. M. Baryatinsky. Main battle tank T-72. 2008 (in Russian)
3. V. Borzenko. Main battle tank T-64. 2012 (in Russian)
4. V. Borzenko. Tank T-80. 2012 (in Russian)
and other open source [:)]
Just curious,my sources are all 80's references. Your sources are all more recent,do you think they are accurrate? [;)] Not trying to impune your sources at all,you are there i am not,just interested in your appraisal.
Also was the T-64 in general deployment with soviet class A armoured formations in the early 80's or was it the T-72? Thanks....[:)]
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:31 pm
by Alex1812
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Your sources are all more recent,do you think they are accurrate?
I thinks, yes. My table does not contradict other sources and it's easy to check. It is known that T-80 fire control = T-64A, and T-80B fire control = T-64B [:)]
ORIGINAL: Tophat1812
Also was the T-64 in general deployment with soviet class A armoured formations in the early 80's or was it the T-72?
T-64 and T-80 are the tanks for first echelon of Soviet troops in Europe. All produced tanks were deployed in East Germany. However T-64 and especially T-80 have the very high cost and other Soviet troops (second echelon, armies in Siberia and Far East, WP allies) were equipped by T-72 as more simple and cheaper tank
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:57 pm
by Alex1812
I checked composite armor for Soviet MBT in the game and it also looks strange. For example T-72A have ACA level 4!
It is not so easy to compare the composite and reactive armor, but here is my quick point of view at present moment:
Code: Select all
ACA ERA
T-64 1 -
T-64A 2 -
T-64B 2 -
T-64BV 2 2+
T-72 - -
T-72A 1 -
T-72AV 1 2
T-72B 1 2
T-72BM 2 4
T-80 1 -
T-80B 1 -
T-80BV 2 2+
T-80U 4 4+
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:17 pm
by CapnDarwin
Alex, the ACA values are not a static type code but based on the difference of the HEAT protection to the Kinetic protection of the platform. Those should be pretty spot on. The ERA is bases on the type of ERA kit. I will have to dig up the number to type conversions. May be in the manual.
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:42 pm
by Alex1812
OK
T-64BV, T-72AV, T-72B and T-80BV have the same ERA kit. It called "Kontakt-1"
T-72BM and T-80U have another ERA type - "Kontakt-5"
About ACA. T-72A does not have great difference between HEAT and AP protection. Absolutely not. It has simple turret protection with sandy armor [:'(]
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:53 pm
by CapnDarwin
Here are some numbers I reference for a number of the MBTs, in this case the T-72A
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:58 am
by Alex1812
Here is the table with protection values in the game. What I wound strange:
1. T-72B has not so good "Kontakt-1" placement. The turret side does not protect absolutely, but it has the very good ERA in the game.
2. T-72BM and T-80U with "Kontakt-5" have the same ERA like T-72B with "Kontakt-1"
3. T-72AV, T-72B, T-80, T-80B have ACA values less than T-72A
My simple propose is set:
T-72B ERA = 2
T-72 ACA = 0
T-72A/AV/B and T-80/T-80B ACA = 1
Code: Select all
ACA ERA PF PFx15
T-64A 1 - 21 315
T-64B 1 - 27 405
T-64BV 4 3+ 30 450
T-72 1 - 21 315
T-72A 4 - 23 345
T-72AV - 2 27 405
T-72B - 4+ 30 450
T-72BM 4 4+ 41 615
T-80 - - 33 495
T-80B - - 34 510
T-80BV 2 2+ 35 525
T-80U 4 4+ 42 630
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:26 am
by Alex1812
and finally about "Last Year Avail" parameter. Maybe it is needed to increas this value for some type of soviet tanks.
For example, T-72A is used widely after 1990. Russian army have a lot of T-72A in First Chechen War (1994-1996) and Syria army use T-72AV right now
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:00 am
by CapnDarwin
Alex, years in service both start and end are a pain to find and also tend to be off in either direction. Any solid data there is helpful.
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:13 pm
by Alex1812
I'll try to find some information on start and end years.
I have another question. Units RU285 T-64A and RU312 T-80U have speed 81 km/h in the game. Is it mistake or not? All sources that I have say about max speed:
T-64 (all models) - 60.5 km/h
T-72 (all models) - 60 km/h
T-80 (all models) - 70 km/h
and the average speed depends on tank's model (engine power/tank weight). For example on highway:
T-64 - 45-55 km/h
T-64A,B - 45-50 km/h
T-64BV - 35-45 km/h
RE: T-72 and Soviet MBT fire control
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:36 pm
by CapnDarwin
Wow, those are typo's. I'll fix the 81s for the 2.09 update thanks for letting me know.