Matrix Games Forums

I noticed that War in the Pacific has a future price tag of nearly eighty dollars! Is this true, and why?

I consider forty dollars average price for a new game. I will pay fifty for a game, but only after pretty serious consideration.

I did not mind paying fifty dollars for Uncommon Valor. It's an excellent product, but how does Matrix justify charging seventy dollars for a game that is based on the engine used in Uncommon Valor.

Certainly since it is based on the same engine as UV, that has to cut production cost.

When I purchased UV, I wished that it went from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima, so War in the Pacific looks really good to me. I would even be willing to shell out another fifty for the game--but 70!!!!!!!!

Why, I ask you!

Because once you start reading AARs and listening to other people playing the game you'll have to have it and be willing to shell out $80

Keep in mind Matrix is a small company. It's the law of diminishing returns. Or economy of scale. Something like that.

Also, the huge scale of WitP will mean that there is tons of development work to be done, not counting the additional features they are hard at work on. In my opinion it will be worth every penny. Think of how many hours of enjoyment you will get with perspective to the price, compared to a movie or something similar.

Mailer, you've got to look at in terms of value recieved- what do you get for the money. UV has been far and away the best value in gaming I've ever seen. Most games are interesting for a couple of weeks, then they fade with the CD going into a drawer somewhere. UV is just as fresh now as it was 6 months ago when I started playing it to the exclusion of all else. I figure UV has cost me about a nickel an hour. I expect I'll be enjoying WITP for years, making it an even bigger value. By that standard, WITP at $80 is dirt cheap.

The projected price is $69.95, American. You know what I paid for Grigsby's SSI release War in the South Pacific in 1987? $59.95, American.

Seventy bucks? Shoot, you can't even have a good weekend in Vegas on that anymore, not even with the nylon stockings, mein Fuhrer - I mean, Mr. President.

Hi, Lets see Pac War cost 80 bucks in 1992,
Bomb Alley was 60 in 1985
Guadalcanal Campaign was 60 in 1985
Knights of the Desert was 40 in 83 (on cassettes)
The Road to Gettysburg was 60 in 85 (I was really pissed when I booted this turkey up, one of the all time disappointments for me. Did anyone like this game?)
Southern Command was 60 in 83
War in Russia 1984 was 80 bucks and became my favorite game

So I think War in the Pacific 2003 at 80 bucks is not unreasonable. In fact I have to say the price of large wargames has remained stable for over 18 years.

That $80 will translate to 1million here in Australia.
But, I will pay it. Why? Because I understand that this sort of game (and UV) isn't very popular out there with the shoot em up crowd who seem to dominate the market.

So we have to pay more to make up for the reduced volume in sales. It's worth it though.

Originally posted by Bradman
I understand that this sort of game (and UV) isn't very popular out there with the shoot em up crowd who seem to dominate the market.

So we have to pay more to make up for the reduced volume in sales. It's worth it though.

If what you say is true then why is it that the other wargame producers HPS, Battlefront, Shrapnel etc don't feel compelled to charge a premium for their games as well. As far as I can tell all of their games are under $50.00 US. BTW I am not trying to start a debate about the relative sins and virtues of these companies so let's not go there.

For those whose argument is that you get more bang for the buck with a good wargame purchase I am in total agreement. However with the advent of company online stores wargames now have an incredibly long life cycle and it is not uncommon for wargames 3+ years old to be still selling for nearly their original price. So while a wargame may not sell as well as the hottest mass market game it will sell much better over its lifetime than if it would if it had to be sold exclusively in stores where it would be marked down after several weeks/months. So again there is no need to charge a premium.

For those whose argument it is that you paid $60-80 US 10 fifteen years ago, all I can say is I am sorry that you got ripped off. The most I can ever remember paying for a game in that era was ~$40.00 US.

I originally came to the Matrix site because of WitP (& PacWar) and have become a big admirer of the Matrix operation in general and wish them the greatest success. I will support them anyway that I can and probably go on to buy many of their upcoming releases (EiA, CL, Korsun Pocket, Europa Fleet Actions, WitP, ... ) but I am afraid I am unwilling to pay a premium despite my obvious addiction to this genre.

Gus

Just don't forget how much effort Matrix is putting into UV in after sales support, too. That's a lot of bang for the buck, baby.

the amount of effort and allocation of resources that go into these games. UV is a 900 meg game (and has been supported by more than 100 megs of patches). The development time is enormous (WITP will have taken well over two years by the time it is finished. I am not exactly sure when work on UV started, but I think that nearly a year and a half were spent on it).

Computer wargaming appeals to a niche market. There is only a limited number of customers out there. If you're going to stay alive, you've got to price accordingly.

The 60 and 70 bucks we were paying for SSI games back in the late 80s and early 90s were not a ripoff. We were willing because that was all the hobby had to offer. SSI was constrained by the same niche market phenomenon.

The 40 dollar crap that passes itself off as "wargames" is the real ripoff.

You get what you pay for. UV, WITP, EIA, and the rest are a bargain as far as the hard-core wargamer is concerned. There's just nothing else out there.

So I've got the plastic all primed and ready. Bring it on. The old ball and chain will just have to settle for cubic zirconia this year and keep on driving the Olds for awhile ... We'll deplete the stock of MREs from the bunker and make fewer trips to the grocery store ... little Betty can wear big brother Zeke's hand-me-downs until she starts middle school ... I can swill Keystone Ice instead of Bud - hell, it gets me just as drunk ...

Mogami is right. Given that one could pay between 59$ and $80 for some of the larger wargames in the 80's, I dont see $80 for a 2003 wargame that encompasses the scale of WitP as unreasonable....more so after working with it's prototype engine, UV.

Pilot to navigator......debit card IS standing by.....

Roger that....

Originally posted by pasternakski
the amount of effort and allocation of resources that go into these games. UV is a 900 meg game (and has been supported by more than 100 megs of patches). The development time is enormous (WITP will have taken well over two years by the time it is finished. I am not exactly sure when work on UV started, but I think that nearly a year and a half were spent on it).

I didn't realize we were paying by the pound UV is certainly a large game but the UV engine itself is only about 1.9M with the remainder going to artwork manuals patches etc..

For comparison the Combat Mission engine is 7.5M. I can't give you an accurate measurement of artwork etc. since I have downloaded so many mods and scenarios that my entire CMBB directory takes up a whopping 1.5G's.

Games do take considerable time to make, 18 -36 months is certainly not unusual and Matrix is not alone having to bear this burden.

Originally posted by pasternakski
Computer wargaming appeals to a niche market. There is only a limited number of customers out there. If you're going to stay alive, you've got to price accordingly.

Please see my previous post in this thread.

Originally posted by pasternakski
The 60 and 70 bucks we were paying for SSI games back in the late 80s and early 90s were not a ripoff. We were willing because that was all the hobby had to offer. SSI was constrained by the same niche market phenomenon.

The 40 dollar crap that passes itself off as "wargames" is the real ripoff.

During the 1980's and early 1990's I lived in NYC and SF, arguably the two most expensive cities in the USA. I bought virtually every SSI title going and to the best of my knowledge I never spent over $40.00 US for any of their games. While certainly some SSI titles were poorly done, especially near the end of their run, most of their games were quite good for the time and I was not implying that they were bad games in general just that I believe you folks paid too much.

Originally posted by pasternakski
You get what you pay for. UV, WITP, EIA, and the rest are a bargain as far as the hard-core wargamer is concerned. There's just nothing else out there.

While it is true there is no other company producing wargames like UV and WitP there are plenty of alternatives for wargamers with respect to the other games in the Matrix product line. So if I have a choice between two Napoleonic games of similar quality and one costs $45 and the other $60 it is a pretty easy decision for me to make. While I don't have the same alternative with WitP I do have other purchase options available namely Ebay and Amazon ZShops & Auctions. While I would prefer to give my money directly to Matrix to support their operations I will not pay a $10-$20 premium for that priviledge.

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
Just don't forget how much effort Matrix is putting into UV in after sales support, too. That's a lot of bang for the buck, baby.

Ron makes a very good point. IMO Matrix is setting a new standard for the industry at large and I hope it is widely adopted. They are the best but they are not alone. Check out the Battlefront forum if you think I am fibbing;

http://www.battlefront.com/index.htm

Be sure to check their price list too.

Finally let me say that Matrix obviously has the right to charge whatever they fell like for a game. They know the market and they know the economics of the situation far better than any of us on the outside looking in and I have to respect that. I suspect that most folks won't be too troubled by the price but unfortunatley I am not one of them. So come the release of WitP I guess you will find me online trolling for bargains!

Gus

So let's cut through the crap, seeing as how you're unwilling to allow me to be conversational and conciliatory. Buy it or don't buy it. It ain't going to be any cheaper. If you are a bargain troller, you're a shopper, not a wargamer.

Originally posted by pasternakski
So let's cut through the crap, seeing as how you're unwilling to allow me to be conversational and conciliatory. Buy it or don't buy it. It ain't going to be any cheaper. If you are a bargain troller, you're a shopper, not a wargamer.

Hi pasternaski

I don't believe I was preventing you from being either converstional or conciliatiory but if I did I apologize. All I was trying to say is that there are other opinions and options out there. I have listened to yours and offered a rebuttal if you don't agree that's OK. As I have said Matrix will do what they believe is right, I will do the same. I don't believe they will fold their tent if one of us questions their decisions.

As for being a shopper (Mom would be so proud) and not a wargamer, I hadn't realized they were mutually exclusive

Have a great holiday

Gus

Originally posted by gus
During the 1980's and early 1990's I lived in NYC and SF, arguably the two most expensive cities in the USA. I bought virtually every SSI title going and to the best of my knowledge I never spent over $40.00 US for any of their games.

I thought PacWar listed at $59.99 when it first came out? Maybe it was $49.99. I do remember that it was more expensive than the standard $39.99 game.

I thought Gary Grisby’s games were more expensive than standard: Second Front, USAAF, West Front, etc. ; of course they were worth it to me.

Hi, Pac War and War in Russia both listed at 79.95 when released.

You are correct Mogami. Gus here are some prices and a link.

Kampfgruppe $59.95 256K, CGA not compatible with PCjr.
Mech Brigade $59.95 256K, CGA
Western Front $59.95 640K, EGA
Gary Grigsby's Pacific War $79.95 640K, E/V
Gary Grigsby's War in Russia, $79.95 640K, E/V
Second Front winter, $59.95 512K, C/E

http://www.geocities.com/copeknight/pc.html

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
Just don't forget how much effort Matrix is putting into UV in after sales support, too. That's a lot of bang for the buck, baby.

And it's a Grigsby game which means there will be so many bugs, some them fundamental, that you should wait several months to purchase it until they fix them.

I have yet to buy a Grigsby game that doesn't have a major flaw with some fundamental aspect of the game. It's great that he adds lots of irrelevant detail that adds to the richness of the game, but get the major parts correct before you add them.

Example - PacWar: Submarine campaign is fundamental to Allied conduct of the war. Distance patrol is from its base determines effectiveness. Base submarines in Western Australia and patrol them 4 hexes from their base... distance to base is calculated at around 60. Another example - the oil reserve effects Japan's ability to wage the war, but the routine convoy system doesn't transport all of the oil it can. Tankers remain in port while a single tanker is sent to pick up 50 times as much oil as it can carry.

Example - Western Front: Supposedely allows you to select alternate strategies for the invasion of Western Europe... but certain HQs and divisions don't enter until specific cities are captured E.g. Bradley's AG and loads of attached divisions don't become available until Cherbourg is captured. Invade Calais and drive to the Rhine, ignoring Cherbourg... you don't get Bradley.

12 O'clock High: Shuttle raids don't work. Recon units never gain experience. Recon squadrons always send out the most senior available pilot regardless of fatigue - your squadron CO, if he is available will fly despite being so fatigued that he will forget to turn on the engine, but the LT. that hasn't flown in 30 days sits at home. Meanwhile, every pilot has individual ratings. Squadron COs affect bomb results and morale, yet you have no way of removing a terrible squadron CO. Your only recourse is to fly the heck out of the squadron and hope the CO buys the farm.

I'm sorry, but I have no faith that any design involving Mr. Grigsby won't have some fundamental problem with the game engine. He designs great games, but before you add veins to the tree leaves, you need to get the tress correct first.

Originally posted by jjjanos
And it's a Grigsby game which means there will be so many bugs, some them fundamental, that you should wait several months to purchase it until they fix them.

I have yet to buy a Grigsby game that doesn't have a major flaw with some fundamental aspect of the game. It's great that he adds lots of irrelevant detail that adds to the richness of the game, but get the major parts correct before you add them.

I wouldn't disagree that many/most have flaws, but oddly I like them better than any other (SSG was my second choice for awhile). Gary Grigsby seems to reach for the moon and falls a little short, but almost a decade later I am still playing Pacwar. Not everything he did was great, but considering

Designed by Gary Grigsby: Carrier Strike: South Pacific, Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, Gary Grigsby's War in Russia, Kampfgruppe, Second Front, Mech Brigade, Warship, Western Front, Typhoon of Steel, Steel Panthers, Uncommon Valor


PS. It my list either gave credit to Gary Grigsby where it wasn’t deserved or left off games he did design… my apologies.

Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
You are correct Mogami. Gus here are some prices and a link.

Kampfgruppe $59.95 256K, CGA not compatible with PCjr.
Mech Brigade $59.95 256K, CGA
Western Front $59.95 640K, EGA
Gary Grigsby's Pacific War $79.95 640K, E/V
Gary Grigsby's War in Russia, $79.95 640K, E/V
Second Front winter, $59.95 512K, C/E

http://www.geocities.com/copeknight/pc.html

Hi Culiacan & Mogami,

I have most of these games, except for "Second Front Winter" & "Mech Brigade" and I did not pay anywhere near these prices for any of them. I paid $10.00 for a copy of PacWar, and ~$20.00 for WiR. The only game that I may have paid near full price for was Kampfgruppe which I purchased for about $40.00. All you had to do was wait a few weeks or months and the price would come down. Alternatively you could pick them up second hand. If you simply had to have the game, then I guess you did pay full price when it was released. Personally I have been burned too many times by making impulse purchases and so I very rarely do that anymore.

But lets say that you are correct and that wargames from this era always sold for the prices quoted. Does it naturally follow that this price model must hold true today as well? I believe I have provided evidence in my previous posts that computer wargame companies today have found that $40.00 - $50.00 US is an acceptable price point (you may disparage these other companies and their products if you like but they work just as hard as our friends at Matrix and their games are of similar quality) and I think I have provided acceptable rebuttals to the other points raised in support of the $70.00 price tag for WitP.

One last thing to consider is that SSI's pricing model for their wargames did not insure the companies survival nor did it improve the quality of their products. So the argument that we as the Matrix faithful must pay a premium to insure Matrix's survival simply does not wash with me at all. Increasing the overall breath of the market and one's slice of it is a more tried and true path to fiscal solvency and survival. Setting prices that are 20-40% above average market price for a game in both the wargaming and the general market is not a good way to achieve this IMO. It creates an artifical barrier to entry for new customers and therefore stymies market growth. This strategy also relies heavily on the assumption that demand for products like WitP is fairly inelastic, i.e. that your number of customers does not shrink, or shrinks markedly less proportionally than the percentage increase in price. I can't comment on exactly how elatic or inelastic this market is but given that I will not fork over $70.00 indictates that it is not completely inelastic.

Cheers

Gus

Originally posted by gus
Hi Culiacan…

I have most of these games, except for "Second Front Winter" & "Mech Brigade" and I did not pay anywhere near these prices for any of them. I paid $10.00 for a copy of PacWar, and ~$20.00 for WiR. The only game that I may have paid near full price for was Kampfgruppe which I purchased for about $40.00. All you had to do was wait a few weeks or months and the price would come down. Alternatively you could pick them up second hand. If you simply had to have the game, then I guess you did pay full price when it was released. Personally I have been burned too many times by making impulse purchases and so I very rarely do that anymore.

First you question why Matrix is charging $69.95 for War in the Pacific:

“I noticed that War in the Pacific has a future price tag of nearly eighty dollars! Is this true, and why? I consider forty dollars average price for a new game. I will pay fifty for a game, but only after pretty serious consideration.”

Then you imply that games never were priced at this level in the past:

“For those whose argument it is that you paid $60-80 US 10 fifteen years ago, all I can say is I am sorry that you got ripped off. The most I can ever remember paying for a game in that era was ~$40.00 US. During the 1980's and early 1990's I lived in NYC and SF, arguably the two most expensive cities in the USA. I bought virtually every SSI title going and to the best of my knowledge I never spent over $40.00 US for any of their games.”

You never said you were buying used or “end of stock” discounted games.


Is this correct so far?