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Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:14 pm
by Chickenboy
I know this issue (whether night time bombing / fighter intercept is "working" or "borked") has been done (to death) in previous threads. Can someone attach a relevant thread link to this thread, please? Many of you are better forum searchers than I am. Thanks in advance. [&o]
Of particular interest to me would be any comments by developers of the game or model in said thread about whether this is working as intended in the game.
I do not wish this thread to be a witch hunt or trolled, so please limit your vindictive if you choose to post your opinions below.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:46 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
I know this issue (whether night time bombing / fighter intercept is "working" or "borked") has been done (to death) in previous threads. Can someone attach a relevant thread link to this thread, please? Many of you are better forum searchers than I am. Thanks in advance. [&o]
Of particular interest to me would be any comments by developers of the game or model in said thread about whether this is working as intended in the game.
I do not wish this thread to be a witch hunt or trolled, so please limit your vindictive if you choose to post your opinions below.
I'm not sure if we ever got a dev answer. I'd love to know it, if we did.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:53 pm
by rustysi
I seem to recall a post from one of the dev's on this, but won't say more until/if I can find it again. Right now I don't have time to search it but will when I can. Its possible I have a hard copy and I'll check there too.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:31 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: rustysi
I seem to recall a post from one of the dev's on this, but won't say more until/if I can find it again. Right now I don't have time to search it but will when I can. Its possible I have a hard copy and I'll check there too.
Thanks guys.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:33 pm
by Chickenboy
Can someone authoritatively state whether there's been some improvement in the night air combat model with some of the betas versus the stock latest "official" patch too?
Thanks again.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:43 pm
by btd64
I did a little looking and didn't find much. If I remember correctly someone said to attack bombers at night from below. I did some testing with this some months back and got mixed results. But I don't recall reading anything from anyone about the model for night air combat ever being worked on in any form. But I might of missed something somewhere....GP
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:28 am
by crsutton
I have not seen much change. Basically any fighter unit on defense at night will help deter attack and reduce bombing accuracy. However, an actual kill is rare and does not seem to happen any more frequently with dedicated night fighters. However, I must add that Ark and I are only in 10/42 of our most recent campaign so my real experience with night fighters was over a year ago as we were playing our last full campaign. Also, we are playing Da Babes now vs stock then. The air routine is certainly a little different but as to night fighters we won't have any real experience for another year or so.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:07 am
by HansBolter
I have two functional night fighter squadrons (real night fighters with radar) operating in a front line air base intercepting almost daily night bombing missions.
They are not only deterring the attacks, they are getting kills and also, much to my surprise, getting intercepts at range greater than zero.
I have never seen an ordinary fighter squadron (non radar equipped) get a night intercept at greater than zero range.
Real night fighters do seem to be WAD.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:50 pm
by rustysi
I did it again, messed up the link. How do I post it here again? The link I mean.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:57 pm
by rustysi
tm.asp?m=3182549&mpage=2&key=night%2Cbombing#
Think I got it.
OK CB,
Check this out I think it may be what you need. Check post #32. Hey, look who opened the thread.[:D]
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:37 am
by Lowpe
I think once night fighters come on the scene, night bombing works pretty well. This from personal experience in 42,43 as Japan and 45 in Downfall as Allies in pbems.
You just have to think a little outside of the box.
Prior to night fighters, it can be hard on Japan to defend.
I used planes with poor climb rates on a very low percentage CAP (10%) and they did wonders at disrupting the bombing runs without a lot of defending fighters shot down. Planes that worked well: Dinah KAI, Pete, Alf. It is a great use for Petes.
And you need AA too. Very important. Kind of a combined tactics strategy and it will minimize your losses during the night.
Thanks Rusty for the link, Nicademus mentions this particular strategy on page 1 of the link.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:09 am
by rustysi
It is a great use for Petes.
I do this also against the AI, and it works fine, at least with small numbers (which is all I have seen so far) and I suspect low experience. I think what CB is referring to can be found in the link I gave above. Has anything changed since then (2012) I don't know, but there it is.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:18 am
by Alfred
This May 2010 thread
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2473198&mpage=1&key=night%2Cbombing�
has comments from theElf #4, and michaelm #15 and #26.
Other threads have comments from Symon as recently as 24 Nov 2013.
Nikademus is definitely the dev who most consistently has opted to have a night bombing HR, but that has mainly been to not allow it before 1943. The other devs have not been so enthusiastic for a night bombing HR. All devs who have commented on the subject recognise some issues exist. The fact that night blackouts are not modelled in the game is a problem. So would be completely forsaking all daylight bombing in favour of unleashing every night 400 bombers against a single target.
If Chickenboy's query fundamentally stems from wondering whether the devs believe night bombing is WAD, the short answer is, bearing in mind the existing engine's capacity, yes. Symon's November 2013 view is that the current executable is adequate but like everything else in AE, if someone wants to take it to non plausible real world extremes, strange outcomes can result.
Also bear in mind that the last official patch (dated 21 Jan 2012) had several changes re night operations: fixes #225, #226 and #230 and tweak #73. The overall "improvement" resulted in a much greater prominence given to having airborne air radar for night operations, both for bombing and CAP purposes. Combined with the role of moonlight for bomber coordination means that dedicated night airplanes under optimal conditions will perform much better than aircraft without radar.
Alfred
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:01 pm
by Numdydar
To be honest I do not see why anyone even cares to bother with night fighting/bombing in the game. In my last PBEM, we both decided to not even do it in the game. This was in mid '42.
So we played from then into early '45 without any night air ops and it did not seem to have any impact on the game that we could see. What we found out is the game allows too many opportunities for abuse with NF/NB as Alfred points out above. Which of course requires HRs so both sides know that A is ok and B is not. All of this just seemed like too much trouble to model something that has such a minor (at least in our experience) impact on the game.
The one thing to remember the reason that night air ops occurred at all was to reduce losses. As we do not have to worry about sending notes home about our little electrons lost [:D] day bombing is the way to go 100% of the time.
But if in your game you are willing to go by number of raids allowed, percent of moonlight, etc. in order to have NF/NB in your games, have at it [:)]
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:30 am
by witpqs
One thing is that the Allies get a big run of a B-29 model with almost no defensive armament. It was solely for night bombing.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:50 am
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
To be honest I do not see why anyone even cares to bother with night fighting/bombing in the game.
Well....... when you don't have daytime escorts, you do this:
Recent excerpts
Night Air attack on Shortlands , at 109,131
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 2
J1N1-S Irving x 1
Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 4 damaged
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Shortlands , at 109,131
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground
D4Y1-C Judy: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged
Runway hits 11
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
And from several months ago
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 21
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 8 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 5
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (6 airborne, 12 on standby, 3 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 17
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 3 damaged
Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 16
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-17F Fortress x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
If you do it right, and have decent pilots, you can destroy dozens of planes on the ground for acceptable loss. When your fighters suck or can't reach with your bombers, it's what you've gotta do. Liberators are the best platform due to their range, durability, and bombload, but B-17s work too. I've cratered runways, even through night CAP, with massed 4E attacks.
In my furthest-along Allied game, it's late September, 1943. Japanese aircraft destroyed on the ground is now at 1228, which is about 1/6 of total losses. The vast majority of these in night bombing raids, though I am able to do some daylight raids now. A few times, there were 50+ IJ planes killed on the ground in a single night at a single airfield, which was rendered heavily damaged for the next day. I've found at least a half dozen instances of this in my notes file for the game. And keep in mind that the combat report is going to undercount the planes destroyed. Look in Tracker the next day to see...
Night bombing has uses.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:54 am
by Numdydar
But those results are not very realistic imho. These kinds of results (even by Japan flying at night) is why we just decided to stop all night stuff.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:12 pm
by Chickenboy
Thanks, rustysi, and others for their helpful posts. I think my questions have been answered.
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:01 pm
by Yaab
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
To be honest I do not see why anyone even cares to bother with night fighting/bombing in the game.
Well....... when you don't have daytime escorts, you do this:
Recent excerpts
Night Air attack on Shortlands , at 109,131
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 2
J1N1-S Irving x 1
Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 4 damaged
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Shortlands , at 109,131
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground
D4Y1-C Judy: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged
Runway hits 11
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
And from several months ago
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 21
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 8 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 5
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (6 airborne, 12 on standby, 3 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 17
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 3 damaged
Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 16
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged
Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 6
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
5th Sentai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (13 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 2000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Lunga , at 114,138
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 13
Allied aircraft
B-17F Fortress x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
If you do it right, and have decent pilots, you can destroy dozens of planes on the ground for acceptable loss. When your fighters suck or can't reach with your bombers, it's what you've gotta do. Liberators are the best platform due to their range, durability, and bombload, but B-17s work too. I've cratered runways, even through night CAP, with massed 4E attacks.
In my furthest-along Allied game, it's late September, 1943. Japanese aircraft destroyed on the ground is now at 1228, which is about 1/6 of total losses. The vast majority of these in night bombing raids, though I am able to do some daylight raids now. A few times, there were 50+ IJ planes killed on the ground in a single night at a single airfield, which was rendered heavily damaged for the next day. I've found at least a half dozen instances of this in my notes file for the game. And keep in mind that the combat report is going to undercount the planes destroyed. Look in Tracker the next day to see...
Night bombing has uses.
How come you bomb with full compliment of bombs at 2000 feet? Are heavy bombers immune from bomb load penalties below 6000 feet?
RE: Nighttime bombing and night fighter intercept revisited
Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:55 pm
by Lokasenna
Load penalties only apply when using LowG/LowN skill - so at 1000 feet. The source claiming that there are penalties below 6000 is not accurate.