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Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:35 am
by robertkeller
I have an human controlled sub in the middle of the pacific with no fuel and can't figure out how to fuel it. I tried sending replenishment AO to it, didn't work. Then I sent two other, fully fueled subs and joined the no-fuel sub to that taskforce...but again, no help. Would appreciate advice on how to fuel this sub. I'm moving one square at a time to a base...but this takes forever and sub incurs much damage along the way.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:08 am
by dr.hal
Despite the fact that subs CAN refuel at sea (witness the German's system of Milch Cows) in this game they can not and must get to a dock to refuel. So sending an AO or other subs will not help. You will have to limp to the nearest port (even if there is no fuel there, send a tanker to offload fuel and the sub will then refuel). The problem is that for each day it is at sea without "gas" it is going to take damage (system damage IIRC). At least this is my understanding, others may know better. Hal
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:11 am
by HansBolter
Not sure if a sub can be refueled at sea form any other ship class.
Curious how it ran out of fuel.
If you sent it to a destination hex with a do not retire order and it stayed in that hex until it ran out of fuel because you forgot about it there is a better way to get a sub to patrol a single hex and still return to its home port on its own when it needs to refuel or rearm.
The way to do this is to give it a patrol order and choose only one of the possible three patrol target hexes.
One possible way to refuel it at sea would be to send several other subs with plenty of fuel and combine them into the same TF with the empty sub and then hit the refuel/replenish button to redistribute fuel within the TF rather than trying to transfer fuel between separate TFs.
Not sure if it will work, but this is the standard method used to allow short legged escorts to travel long distances with long legged transports. The AI automatically slows the TF down every few turns to burn some OPs points transferring fuel, but the player can also do it manually with the button anytime he wants.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:23 am
by dr.hal
Interesting Hans, never thought about putting the empty with other subs into the same TF, and then hit refuel... have you done this??? This would technically be what the Germans did...
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:26 am
by Alfred
It will not work. It is quite intentional; a sub at sea can not have it's fuel tanks refilled. Don Bowen was quite adamant about it in this thread.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2376923&mpage=1&key=sub%2Crefueling�
Alfred
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:35 am
by dr.hal
Ok, that's cool. Neither the US or Japan had Milch Cows.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:43 am
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Not sure if a sub can be refueled at sea form any other ship class.
Curious how it ran out of fuel.
If you sent it to a destination hex with a do not retire order and it stayed in that hex until it ran out of fuel because you forgot about it there is a better way to get a sub to patrol a single hex and still return to its home port on its own when it needs to refuel or rearm.
The way to do this is to give it a patrol order and choose only one of the possible three patrol target hexes.
One possible way to refuel it at sea would be to send several other subs with plenty of fuel and combine them into the same TF with the empty sub and then hit the refuel/replenish button to redistribute fuel within the TF rather than trying to transfer fuel between separate TFs.
Not sure if it will work, but this is the standard method used to allow short legged escorts to travel long distances with long legged transports. The AI automatically slows the TF down every few turns to burn some OPs points transferring fuel, but the player can also do it manually with the button anytime he wants.
I have had subs with valid patrol zones and OK-to-go-home settings run out of fuel because ASW damage caused a fuel leak or loss of a chunk while on station. The algo sends them home as soon as it sees the problem, but if there's not enough there's not enough.
A sub won't refuel while underway, ever. Not from surface ships and not from other subs in a Sub TF. You can't even mix subs with any surface ships in any type of TF, even Escort. You have to get them to some form of land and get fuel to them. And every hex they move while at zero fuel accumulates damage. If they're way out they're usually lost.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:57 am
by HansBolter
ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Interesting Hans, never thought about putting the empty with other subs into the same TF, and then hit refuel... have you done this??? This would technically be what the Germans did...
No it was a suggestion of what I thought might work, but Alfred has given us the definitive answer.
Not sure if adding other boats to the TF would reduce damage accumulation as with an escort for a cripple in an Escort TF.
Again might be worth a try unless Alfred or Moose can tell us differently.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:06 pm
by dr.hal
It might insure that the captain survives (if the guy is worth keeping!).
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:18 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Interesting Hans, never thought about putting the empty with other subs into the same TF, and then hit refuel... have you done this??? This would technically be what the Germans did...
No it was a suggestion of what I thought might work, but Alfred has given us the definitive answer.
Not sure if adding other boats to the TF would reduce damage accumulation as with an escort for a cripple in an Escort TF.
Again might be worth a try unless Alfred or Moose can tell us differently.
I just did a quick test. Made a sub TF from San Diego with one Gato and three S-class. Sent them west on Full on 3-day turns until the S-classes were dry. The TF reversed and headed back. The Gato had about 6000 left and zero damage. She was fine. The S-classes stayed at zero fuel for six days. Each accumulated System damage at seemingly random rates. One had 10 by the end of the test, the others between 5-6. One had one point of engine damage.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:04 pm
by dr.hal
Thanks Moose that's certainly less damage than I thought would happen. Interesting and good to have some figures attached even if it is only based upon one trial. Hal
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:05 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Thanks Moose that's certainly less damage than I thought would happen. Interesting and good to have some figures attached even if it is only based upon one trial. Hal
I don't think it's linear. The short answer is don't run out of gas west of Wake Island early-war. [:)]
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:51 am
by afspret
I was able to refuel a single Dutch MTB that was out of fuel, and 3 hexes away from a port with fuel, from a Dutch Sub. WAD?
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:48 am
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: afspret
I was able to refuel a single Dutch MTB that was out of fuel, and 3 hexes away from a port with fuel, from a Dutch Sub. WAD?
Yes, that works and is WAD as far as I know.
Now try to fuel the other way.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:21 pm
by witpqs
My best guess is that it's not really intended, but an artifact of the way the code works.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:37 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: witpqs
My best guess is that it's not really intended, but an artifact of the way the code works.
I'd agree. Subs didn't carry hoses on patrol and PTs sure didn't.
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:30 am
by afspret
Maybe they used the old syphoning trick[;)]! Though realistically, aside from a lack of hoses, I doubt the fuel would be compatible, since most subs had diesel engines, & didn't most PTs/MTBs use gasoline engines?
RE: Submarine Refueling
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:42 am
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: afspret
Maybe they used the old syphoning trick[;)]! Though realistically, aside from a lack of hoses, I doubt the fuel would be compatible, since most subs had diesel engines, & didn't most PTs/MTBs use gasoline engines?
Good point. Yeah, gas is not diesel.
Sub skippers routinely stripped the boat of ANYTHING external that could reveal position or be dislodged by a DC. Lifelines, anchors and chain, ship's bells and stanchions, on and on. A fuel hose had to be stowed in the mooring line lockers; there was no room inside. And even a few drops of fuel a minute leaking in the wake leaves a sheen on flat seas. Bringing a PT boat alongside (wood meet steel!) in calm seaways would still require I'd guess 50-70 feet of hose. Plus the proper fittings. Plus sitting at zero knots while it was all done. No thanks.