Matrix Games Forums

We are going to test out the scenario scoring vp system in an AAR "campaign" and see how it fares in a player v player environment.

It can be downloaded here: tm.asp?m=3825398

Meklore is welcome in this thread as we see if there are any play balance issues in player v player. It will also be interesting to see what he chooses to bomb.

There may be restarts if we see some issues along the way.

Only house rule is no invasion of N Europe before March '44. There is no EF box.

This is the current VP scoring system which I tested in AI v AI:

At the end of the turn ALLIES 1.5 to 1! WOOHOO!!! GO ALLIES!!!

As we plot nefariously over our plotting tables...mmmmm, what to bomb, what to take??? All these questions? I feel like Mussolini on viagra! Oh, wait! They didn't have viagra back then.

Guess you'll have to tune in next week, same Bat Time! same Bat Channel! to find out.[8D]

At the end of turn 1 Meklore has chosen to bomb my AFV factories and Synthetic fuel production. He did not invade yet in the Med.

How this changes the game already!

Well the allied horde is off to the races! Two simultaneous invasions were launched (pictures forgot) against Sicily and Sardinia. My bombing campaign is off to a slow start as the planes I moved to new bases on turn one went into reserve and weren't available for missions this turn. I had the bases all set to Priority 4 last turn, but they several lacked supply to fly. Next turn maybe.

Meklore being Meklore....his standard opening...just looks like he wants Palermo early though for the VPs.



I'm not wasting German lives on the islands, too costly. I decided to let the Italians and Italian LW handle it. All german forces that aren't frozen will defend the mainland.

What is frozen for the Germans?

Entire Atlantic Wall...so most of OB West until Feb '44

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Entire Atlantic Wall...so most of OB West until Feb '44

Interesting, so what units are free to move to Italy? I assume the Paras in Provence, what else?

One thing that may be disruptive, as Germany it's a good idea to expend APs through 43-44 gradually to mobilize all the static units. Under that set-up, German player is going to have to "Bank" alot of APs in preparation for that; if you hit February with 0 in the bank, you won't have near enough to do so

I can also see this being disruptive when units withdraw; for example, when the SS Panzer unit in Bordeaux withdraws, you will have to get another strong unit there or trigger VP penalties. If units are not frozen, that's easier to do.

Entire Atlantic Wall...so most of OB West until Feb '44

Puts things more 'on rails' than I'd prefer. I'm galled when I can't move an Italian unit on Corsica because the invaders are 40 miles away. I'm not sure I want most of the German army in that same boat.

I can also see this being disruptive when units withdraw; for example, when the SS Panzer unit in Bordeaux withdraws, you will have to get another strong unit there or trigger VP penalties. If units are not frozen, that's easier to do.

It's a scenario, so there are no garrison requirements, that's why he has chosen to freeze the units until '44.

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Entire Atlantic Wall...so most of OB West until Feb '44

Puts things more 'on rails' than I'd prefer. I'm galled when I can't move an Italian unit on Corsica because the invaders are 40 miles away. I'm not sure I want most of the German army in that same boat.

I can also see this being disruptive when units withdraw; for example, when the SS Panzer unit in Bordeaux withdraws, you will have to get another strong unit there or trigger VP penalties. If units are not frozen, that's easier to do.

It's a scenario, so there are no garrison requirements, that's why he has chosen to freeze the units until '44.

That's why we have the house rule for the invasion to not come until Spring of '44. It does put the game a little on rails, but you gain a ton of freedom in the following 1) no garrisons 2) No beachhead penalty 3) no bombing requirements

In addition, we are finding it fun that we are both rewarded for destroying the enemy.

I may alter the scenario in the future (probably will actually) to unfreeze all of Corsica and Sardinia.

That's why we have the house rule for the invasion to not come until Spring of '44. It does put the game a little on rails, but you gain a ton of freedom in the following 1) no garrisons

I personally didn't mind garrisons, knowing that the people of the occupied countries had to be occupied to stay under the German thumb it doesn't strike me as obtrusive because I could at least juggle what units were utilized to meet those requirements. Freezing everything means it might as well not exist, and then you have to create house rules to prevent exploitation of that, which in turns limits WA Allies and puts them even more 'on rails'.

2) No beachhead penalty

I'm in the camp that this concern was overblown. To my mind if you can't get on the ground in southern and northern Europe you're losing anyway whether you realize it or not yet.

3) no bombing requirements

It will be most interesting to see how this plays out. If 8th USAF, etc. is spending the whole war wrecking the railyards and concentrating on destroying particular equipment factories I think the Germans will be in more trouble than they already are with what the WA has in their arsenal. I think this might be a bigger play balance issue than is currently considered.

I'm glad the game came with an editor so that people can work these things out and make the game more fun to them. Hopefully the VP system/editor capabilities get even more robust (the ability to tweak 'campaign' VP conditions, not just scenario VP conditions), but I have no clue what kind of effort that involves at this stage.

The axis shouldn't have to spend ap now to mobilize those frozen units. They're frozen, not static. I'm not sure but can you freeze a static unit? Usually it takes me till Jan. 44 to mobilize most of the Atlantic Wall so the units that are frozen shouldn't start static and frozen. This should allow the axis a little more freedom with ap's since they don't have to mobilize all those units. I'm not sure yet, as I haven't looked at what units he did freeze. I probably would have frozen only the ones that start the game in a garrison zone, except for Southern France since it's invadable.

Yes, fighting for the islands is pointless if you remove the ports and put a TF in the ferry hex next to Messina. Any units left on Sicily are going to be looking to get out and they won't be able to, especially the motorized units. Keep the other ports trashed and the TF at Messina and Sicily is yours.

ORIGINAL: meklore61

The axis shouldn't have to spend ap now to mobilize those frozen units. They're frozen, not static. I'm not sure but can you freeze a static unit? Usually it takes me till Jan. 44 to mobilize most of the Atlantic Wall so the units that are frozen shouldn't start static and frozen. This should allow the axis a little more freedom with ap's since they don't have to mobilize all those units. I'm not sure yet, as I haven't looked at what units he did freeze. I probably would have frozen only the ones that start the game in a garrison zone, except for Southern France since it's invadable.

Yes, fighting for the islands is pointless if you remove the ports and put a TF in the ferry hex next to Messina. Any units left on Sicily are going to be looking to get out and they won't be able to, especially the motorized units. Keep the other ports trashed and the TF at Messina and Sicily is yours.

They are frozen and static actually, they will unfreeze and then be static. Perhaps we move them back to static status as it was and don't freeze them? It's an issue to struggle with.

Yes, fighting for the islands is pointless if you remove the ports and put a TF in the ferry hex next to Messina. Any units left on Sicily are going to be looking to get out and they won't be able to, especially the motorized units. Keep the other ports trashed and the TF at Messina and Sicily is yours.

I don't think anyone should place a TF in the ferry hex. I had one go to 98% damage after a single turn when I did that. I don't want to finish a turn next to a fortified port (or worse, two!).
Place TFs as follows and you block the ferry supply route and Reggio Calabria can't get sea supplies (and with the threat of Italian surrender Germans don't want to be that far south).
Keep the ports on the island shut by bombing or naval patrol.



In light of this, the German pushing a bunch of units into Sicily is really gambling on your opponent being ignorant of his options, or unwilling to use them.

I've found it worth the risk, and the damage. You don't need it there long, and doing without one TF isn't going to hurt my effort if I catch a Panzer Korps on Sicily with it. I call that a win. Plus you can rotate them out. The same one doesn't have to sit there every turn, but if he puts a fort there, then you could be in trouble. Using two TF's would hamper my future plans. I planned for one TF to sit up there, and the rest would get busy with out invasion schedule. Can't have two TF's busy like that, I need them.

If you place TF's like you have on your pic, that doesn't stop movement over the ferry hexes, and doesn't stop supply from getting to Messina. We all have our own way of doing things, and I won't put a TF up there unless I see someone commit their mobile axis units to the fight on Sicily.

I've found it worth the risk, and the damage.

Like I said, I took 98% damage in a single turn by putting a unit the ferry hex (where it can be bombarded at the end of the turn by defense in BOTH Messina and Reggio Calabria.
Does a TF 'die' if it gets to 100% damage? Seems like a helluva risk if they do...

Plus you can rotate them out. The same one doesn't have to sit there every turn, but if he puts a fort there, then you could be in trouble. Using two TF's would hamper my future plans. I planned for one TF to sit up there, and the rest would get busy with out invasion schedule. Can't have two TF's busy like that, I need them.

If you're rotating them, how does that not negatively impact your invasion schedule? Aren't you losing their prep when you rotate them out?

If you place TF's like you have on your pic, that doesn't stop movement over the ferry hexes,

A single TF in one of the two ferry hexes will stop supply, but it won't stop movement by units through the other ferry hex either. You'd have to devote two TFs to accomplish that.

and doesn't stop supply from getting to Messina.

It stops supplies via the ferry. You can't isolate the island without blocking it. The defensive perimeter of Messina can be fed from the Reggio Calabria depot (I don't even like to send supplies to the Messina depot because it robs the other islands ability to stockpile - Axis have very little naval supply capability, and it craters when Italy surrenders).

We all have our own way of doing things, and I won't put a TF up there unless I see someone commit their mobile axis units to the fight on Sicily.

I usually have two of them fixing the small ports and maintaining the temp ports as long as needed while the other 4 prep for the next invasion on the mainland to compel an Italian surrender as soon as August arrives.
It's the threat of their arrival that should keep the German from getting carried away in Sicily, so long as the WA player realizes he has that option. If the German puts his head in the noose - pull the trap!

A TF that hits 100% damage is removed from the map and returns as a reinforcement off of Liverpool, Britain 12 turns later.

We are going to start over, no frozen Atlantic wall now, and germans get 3 APs a turn. The islands now also don't have any frozen Italian units.