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I'm planning an ASW/ASuW scenario, circa 1963, with USA and the USSR as the main players with NATO aligned countries also entering the fray. I'm curious to hear any thoughts on a multi-national ASW/ASuW hunt with several surface and sub-surface platforms hunting several other surface and sub-surface platforms.
My main concern was how forces identified one another (i.e., a UK sub crossing a US sub) as hostile or friendly. I was planning to have the sides aligned in a way so as to depict the ambiguity of identifying sub-surface contacts (as well as the subs having to determine if the surface contact is hostile or friendly.)

I was wanting something like finding your naked wife in a darkened room full of naked people without getting too friendly or assuming one over the other. [:D]Is that plausible in CMANO?

Tell me your thoughts, if you may.
Thanks, Steve

ORIGINAL: AdmSteebe
I was wanting something like finding your naked wife in a darkened room full of naked people without getting too friendly or assuming one over the other. [:D]Is that plausible in CMANO?

Tell me your thoughts, if you may.

If that's your normal hobby, where do you find time and energy for CMANO???

Identifying friend from foe submarines is about two things.

-Communications. Submarines can communicate in a multitude of ways. They have various sorts of radio masts, as well as underwater telephones. Communications between subs, surface ships, and aircraft can be quite literally as easy as picking up the phone sometimes.

-Space. Another way to prevent friendly subs from being fired upon is making sure they are not patrolling overlapping areas with other friendly assets. You might divide a given space up between several assets. A good example might be dividing an area between and MPA and a submarine, the MPA stays in his box and attacks only those contacts in his box, while the submarine stays in his box and only attacks contacts in this box. If they detect a target that's not in their box, they might report it to the other asset and say, "Hey! We see a target in your box!" Allied nations try to coordinate the stationing of their submarines and ASW assets so as to minimize the opportunity for fratricide. The UK, for example might get the GIUK gap, while the US concentrates on the Barents Sea and the Norwegians concentrate around their coast.

My main concern was how forces identified one another (i.e., a UK sub crossing a US sub) as hostile or friendly. I was planning to have the sides aligned in a way so as to depict the ambiguity of identifying sub-surface contacts (as well as the subs having to determine if the surface contact is hostile or friendly.)

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Identifying friend from foe submarines is about two things.

-Communications. Submarines can communicate in a multitude of ways. They have various sorts of radio masts, as well as underwater telephones. Communications between subs, surface ships, and aircraft can be quite literally as easy as picking up the phone sometimes.

As I understand (and I'm not sure if this holds true today or in 1963) data links between subs and surface vessels were restricted to the depth of the sub, i.e., if the sub was running deep, comms were non-existent and could only be established if the sub came to the surface. It seems to me, CMANO is modeled as to allow all friendly units to send/receive radar/sonar data to other friendly units regardless if a sub was deep or surfaced. Was this even possible in 1963?
Thanks, Steve

ORIGINAL: cf_dallas

ORIGINAL: AdmSteebe
I was wanting something like finding your naked wife in a darkened room full of naked people without getting too friendly or assuming one over the other. [:D]Is that plausible in CMANO?

Tell me your thoughts, if you may.

If that's your normal hobby, where do you find time and energy for CMANO???

CMANO is my after-sex cigarette.

As I understand (and I'm not sure if this holds true today or in 1963) data links between subs and surface vessels were restricted to the depth of the sub, i.e., if the sub was running deep, comms were non-existent and could only be established if the sub came to the surface. It seems to me, CMANO is modeled as to allow all friendly units to send/receive radar/sonar data to other friendly units regardless if a sub was deep or surfaced. Was this even possible in 1963?
Thanks, Steve[/b]

It is true that a submarine's ability to communicate is restricted by depth. They have various masts containing all kinds of antennas that means they don't necessarily have to surface in order to communicate (even in the 60s). Now a days there's VLF and ELF radio which allows communication with submerged submarines in various depth ranges. There's also underwater telephone, which has it's own limitations, although due to the nature of how sound travels in the ocean, they're often more difficult to describe.

CMANO doesn't seem to spend a lot of time on those kind of problems. That's okay to me. The reality is that submarines pop up regularly for short intervals to relay various pieces of information to each other and to their commanders, so it's not necessarily a big limitation, particularly in larger scenarios. The "lone hunter" image of Hollywood is a little overplayed in my opinion. While there's various limitations to submarine communications, they're not alone in the dark either.

How to model the limitations of communications in various time periods is kind of difficult, in my mind, because they depend to a certain extent on the size of the scenario. On a smaller scenario involving just a few platforms, the problems don't really matter that much. On a larger scenario, involving dozens or even hundreds of platforms, the limitations would mostly manifest themselves as message latency.

Given the flexibility of the game, in terms of it's ability to model both larger and smaller scenarios, some things have to be assumed away. Communications is definitely one of those things.

It is quite easy to get a message sent to a sub. It is done with very low frequency pulse, that tells a sub to come to a depth from where it can receive and send HF data (towed antenna wire or antenna mast). Thus it's not entirely unrealistic that you can immediately tell a sub to do something. In real life it would take few minutes to do, but that is quite a small detail.

Getting messages *to* a sub can be done, but the sub cant answer without risking its position, even with some kind of super-duper tight-beam satcom - and as you say, it takes time, plus the fact that the sub doesn't want to come up for comms very often, especially in a busy theatre.

The unreality comes with being able to give subs prompt orders (Hard-a-port! Torpedo!), having constant access to the subs data (sensors and so forth) and always having a constant and precise fix on its location, especially in relation to our own forces.

Its all part-and-parcel of the simulation game, I have no problem with it at all, but if you wanted to simulate submarine ops hard-core, those are the things that should be tackled.

ORIGINAL: tmammela

It is quite easy to get a message sent to a sub. It is done with very low frequency pulse, that tells a sub to come to a depth from where it can receive and send HF data (towed antenna wire or antenna mast). Thus it's not entirely unrealistic that you can immediately tell a sub to do something. In real life it would take few minutes to do, but that is quite a small detail.

Yes, but a ship can't just tell a submarine to come up and have a chat. Most, if not all, of these communications come from shore stations, and are probably sent at pre-determined times or, at the very least, have a hell of a communications lag built into them.

Thanks to those that replied. I'd like to ask you how you prefer submarines to be modeled in a CMANO scenario;

(1)subs to be in the side that it represents with all other units allowing all to communicate with each other
(2)subs to be assigned a separate side from surface units and operating independently i.e.
A)Blue Side Surface Units
B)Blue Side Sub Units 1-3
or
(3)subs to be modeled from separately from surface units, other sub surface units and operating independently i.e.,
A)Blue Side Surface Units
B)Blue Side Sub Unit #1
c)Blue Side Sub Unit #2
D)Blue Side Sub Unit #3
And using the above options, using what posturing? Do you allow the subs to use surface sensor data or vice versa or should all units be friendly to another and allowing use of all sensor data?

Thank You,
Steve