Matrix Games Forums

Ladies (???) and Gents,

I'm a newcomer and I've thus far been involved in four PBEM games. I decisively lost a Coral Sea scenario as the Japs and I'm playing three Scenario 17s as the USA (two are in late June '42 and the other is just getting started). I've encountered a few annoying or puzzling situations and would like feedback:

1. Several times I have had USA CV TFs in the same hex with orders "do not react to enemy" only to have somebody blatantly disobey my orders. This happened yesterday with disasterous results when one of two US CV TFs sailed a hex closer to the enemy while the other stayed put (hey, if one is going to disobey, at the the very least the other should also). With my CV TFs and CAP thus divided in two, the Japs savaged the "disobedient" CV TF seriously damaging Hornet and Enterprise (and finishing them off the next turn). I gnashed my teeth and my opponent said that he has had similar problems and thus always puts all his CVs into one TF if they are meant to stay together. So, is a "do not react to enemy" order optional?

2. In another game my opponent (the IJN commander) was dismayed to find his CV TFs reacting and thus sailing well within range of my CV TF bombers rather than acting prudently and keeping a distance of 8 or 9 or 10 hexes which would have been within range of his carrier based bombers and not mine. Why would his admiral act so irresponsibly? Shouldn't the computer program pick up on such an important advantage and try to achieve it on behalf of the IJN? I know the IJN player can set his CV TF to "do not react" and try to maneuver to within 8 - 10 hexes of the USN (but no closer!), but it would make things a heck of alot easier if the computer simply did this for the him.

3. From my own games and judging from another recent posting in the War Room, it seems that CAP is shooting down enormous numbers of enemy bombers while flak gets few if any. That doesn't seem realistic. For instance, in one of my games, USA had six CVs and the Japs had about the same number and both sides launched attacks. I think both sides lost about 400 or 500 planes over two days and nearly all of them were shot down by enemy fighters. In the "real" war, I would think the opposite was true. Of the total number of enemy bombers shot down while attacking a carrier force, I'm "guessing" that perhaps 20% - 40% succumbed to CAP while the balance of the losses came from flak. Didn't flak inflict much greater losses than CAP?

4. If 300 planes were getting shot down in a single day, I'd think surviving pilot morale would plummet to zero and it would be very difficult to get anybody to press home an attack the next day and probably for a long time afterwards. How many times did 300 planes get shot down in a single day? If memory serves, the Mariannas Turkey Shoot had a tremendous number of kills, but what about Midway? That was a titanic carrier battle but I doubt the numbers were anything like that. I don't have the numbers at hand, so I'm not sure about this, but aircraft losses seem disproportionately high in UV. Am I wrong?

5. Another frustrating thing is the inability to order bombers to focus on a particular TF or at least a particular type of ship. Yesterday, while my "disobedient" CV TF was reacting to the enemy against orders and taking a pounding, it sent its bombers to attack an enemy AP TF rather than the dadgum IJN CVs which were even closer! Furthermore, from what I can tell thus far, land-based bombers pretty much refuse to attack CV TFs if there is any other type of ship in the vicinity. Bettys, Nells, B-25s, etc would all rather attack an AP than a CV. What's with that? That problem would be solved if we could order bombers to "prefer CVs" or to attack a particular TF if range permits.

That said, let me say that it's a heck of alot of fun to match wits with an opponent and try to out think him.

Canoerebel

1. More aggressive admirals will "take matters into their owns" sometimes, even if you are set to "Patrol/Do Not Retire". I used Spruance in previous games, and he charges right into the jaws of he11. I like Mitchner, he stays where I tell him to, and he has good ratings (and just won a decicive engagement with my IJN PBEM opponent, sinking 2 CVs and minor damage to one of his own CVs). In earlier versions, I believe there was an issue where they'd still react, even if you told them not to. In 2.0, they set it to move 1 hex towards the enemy, and I can't rememeber if that's still in or not. But again, it's the aggression level of your commander that will determine if he goes charging off.

2. No, I fairly sure that it ISN'T coded to "stay at 10 hexes". While we may be able to number crunch our way thru the battles, and see that 300 miles is the range that USN CVs are least likely to respond, in reality, the IJN commander is going to be pointing in the direction of his latest scouting reports. He doesn't actually know where he needs to be in order to keep 300 miles between him and the enemy TF. Also being closer means his pilots have less to fly (lower fatigue), and less flight time means better turn-around time (so maybe he can get in the extra strike).

3. RADAR is very useful if you're USN. It helps to keep the maximum number of CAP committed to an airbattle, esp a protracted one. Frankly, I'm a little surprised how effective it does seem to be, but it definately makes a HUGE difference in your CAP levels. Don't leave home without it.

4. Well, players tend to be more agressive than they were historically. We're more likely to pack together 4 CVs in a TF, because you NEED to put 4 CVs together (or whatever), because that's what your opponent is doing. The reality was that there weren't THAT many engagements historically, and they tended to be smaller than some of the massive things we put together. But players are simply more likely to regularly put together a TF that would field 300 planes in the first place.

5. There's a very vocal thread about this, just look for the thread with a crap-load of replies. Maybe that convoy represented the "best" scouting report your commander had that day (sending 100 DBs to empty ocean is counter productive). Like I said, there's a very vocal thread on this, and many have voiced an opinion about it.

6. Your land-based bombers will not attack anything with significant CAP (like CV TFs). You'll need to assign them enough escorts (that are also in range of the target TF) to convince the bomber squadron commander to risk his 12 B-25s vs. a IJN CV TF with 24 Zeros.

It is definately true, a human opponent is far beyond anything the AI will send out.

Regards,
-F-

Hi Canoe,

I can't answer all your questions, but I can take a stab at the CV reaction issue.

First, you should just get in the habit of always setting CVs to Patrol/Do Not React unless you have a good reason not to.

Second, as Feinder says, CVs will sometimes react one hex toward the enemy, even if set to Do Not React. To avoid the problem of one CV reacting while another stays put (and thus splitting your CVs), try putting a third TF in the same hex -- say a Surface Combat TF, even if it consist only of a DD or two. Tell the Surface C TF to lead, and order the CVs to follow. In that configuration, the CV's don't (in my experience) do the one-hex react thing. They stay together. I think.

Finally, yes, UV can be bloodier than real life, because we're all much more aggressive! Also, FoW can make losses seem greater than they are. I only trust the intel screen when calculating my losses.

Gents,

Thanks for the pointers and the well-needed reminder that quite often in wartime crazy things happen, orders may not be followed, men make mistakes, etc. etc. You're all right of course.

Here's some information about the Great Mariannas Turkey Shoot, a USN/IJN battle on June 19, 1944:

"By the late afternoon the sky over (US CV) TF-58 was swept clear of enemy aircraft, two Japanese carriers had been sunk by submarines and an incredible 373 enemy planes shot down. (US Admiral) Mitscher lost only 23 aircraft and not one of his task force was seriously damaged. The U.S. Navy pilots had won an historic victory that paved the way to the final onslaught upon Japan."

Hey, the outcome of this battle sounds like typical results of one of my Uncommon Valor battles (me being the IJN forces, of course)........

Canoerebel

You and I are in the same canoe, canoerebel. Those were pretty much the results that I experienced in that massive air battle against Feinder.

Originally posted by Canoerebel

1. Several times I have had USA CV TFs in the same hex with orders "do not react to enemy" only to have somebody blatantly disobey my orders. This happened yesterday with disasterous results when one of two US CV TFs sailed a hex closer to the enemy while the other stayed put (hey, if one is going to disobey, at the the very least the other should also). With my CV TFs and CAP thus divided in two, the Japs savaged the "disobedient" CV TF seriously damaging Hornet and Enterprise (and finishing them off the next turn). I gnashed my teeth and my opponent said that he has had similar problems and thus always puts all his CVs into one TF if they are meant to stay together. So, is a "do not react to enemy" order optional?

Well that commander will never disobey your orders again. Watch out for those over agressive Commanders.

Hi, The 1 hex reaction is bad when there are 2 aircombat TF's in a hex and only one moves. However it should be pointed out that regardless of whether they move that 1 hex or not you are going to be attacked. There are three possible results
1. Both TF stay where they are. Both will be subject to attack but their CAP will be combined
2. 1 TF's move other stays put. Now each TF is on it's own CAP wise but the 1 that moves should launch a counter strike (the reason for the 1 hex reaction is enemy aircombat TF is within it's range but your TF is out of range or at extended range so it moves to close distance and allow counter strike)
3. Both TF's react 1 hex. Keeping the combined CAP and no also allowing combine counter strike.

No matter what the main point is these TF's were going to be attacked no matter what they did. One of your commanders tried to get into position to counter strike.

The Japanese (AI) will try to get wthin 7 hexes (normal range for their DB)

Solutions:
1. Never move aircombat TF's into an area without knowing where enemy CV are.
2. If you know where the enemy CV are and wish to avoid battle make sure to order your CV to move well beyond extended strike range of enemy.
3. If you wish to fight carrier battle make sure to move your TF's to within 6 hexes of enemy (4 to use torpedo TBD 5 to use bomb TBD 6 if you have TBF)