Matrix Games Forums

It is Sept, 1939. Britain is trying to get resources to factories and oil to save locations. Trying to get the Meine Grande oil to England. I have convoys in the Faroes Gap, but the program insists on sending them through the Bay of Biscay so that other resources can't get through. I want to change the convoy route, but the program won't let me. Instead I get a message box stating that I can't change an all rail/land route! This is just one of the problems with the system. The program persists in using oil for production instead of using non-oil resources and saving the oil. It also sends resources on routes that prevent other resources from getting through, and won't allow changes. And If it has a choice of ports to ship a resource from it uses the port that results in the unnecessary use of a convoy that also prevents other resources from shipping. It seems designed to make it more difficult to ship resources. I thought that was the job of the enemy. It is outrageous and disgraceful that this long after the release of the game, that these huge defects have not been fixed.

Your game is showing full production and maximum oil savings except for one Mena Grande oil and that one can be saved in Canada with no changes to the convoys or routings.

The Polish resources are not available to you and the Malaya resources do not have the convoys needed to go to England.

I did find your unit coloring very confusing though.

There is a method for forcing specific convoys routings like what you want, detail instructions are in the manuals.

I agree with Lars.

Here are a series of screenshots showing how I analyzed your overseas routes for Commonwealth production.

Upper Left
Summary shows full production with 5 idle resources. The Polish resources have no routes to factories. The Malaya resources likewise have no available convoys. The one convoy in the Bay of Bengal is being used to take an oil point to India to be saved there. The fifth resource is the 3rd oil in Venezuela, which can be sent to Canada and be saved there.

Lower Left
Here are all the convoyed resources. The routes look to use minimal convoys except for the one from Newcastle Australia.

Large Global Map
Note that there is an insert map of the unused convoys. Only 3 convoys are not in use. As Lars pointed out, the available convoy in the Caribbean can be used to get the idle oil point to Canada. There aren't enough available convoys to get it to the United Kingdom.

Bottom Center
So I looked at the route for the Newcastle, AU resource and saw that it diverted around the Bay of Biscay, using an extra convoy.

Bottom Right
Then I looked at what was happening in the Bay of Biscay: how all those convoys were being used. That all looked very efficient too.

I don't see enough unused convoys or inefficient routes to optimize this any better than you have already done (except for saving the Venezuela oil in Canada).

I took another look at this and found a solution to what you wanted to do.

First I noticed that a Venezuela oil was going through the Bay of Biscay.


So I cleared the Default and Override settings for that resource then modified
the route so it would go through the Faeroes Gap.

That let the Newcastle AU resource go through the Bay of Biscay.

I had to do the same thing for the other two Venezuela resources going to the United Kingdom -
the program does prefer to route through the Bay of Biscay instead of the Faeroes Gap.

But once I had all 3 Venezuela resource settings cleared and their routes to the United Kingdom modified,
there were no unused convoys, full production and all the saved oil in England.

While I don't agree with the OP that the system is totally broken, I would like to see a check box to turn off "auto convoy" and have the player set them all up. I find it very difficult to get the convoys set up the way I want and to keep it that way. Something always seems to want to change. One example is lending resources. If I am lending them I feel that I should have to designate which resources I am lending, not have the game choose. Yes, I know I can change it manually, but then I have to do that for both the one I want to send and the one I "unsent".

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

While I don't agree with the OP that the system is totally broken, I would like to see a check box to turn off "auto convoy" and have the player set them all up. I find it very difficult to get the convoys set up the way I want and to keep it that way. Something always seems to want to change. One example is lending resources. If I am lending them I feel that I should have to designate which resources I am lending, not have the game choose. Yes, I know I can change it manually, but then I have to do that for both the one I want to send and the one I "unsent".

Ditto - a thousand times.

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

While I don't agree with the OP that the system is totally broken, I would like to see a check box to turn off "auto convoy" and have the player set them all up. I find it very difficult to get the convoys set up the way I want and to keep it that way. Something always seems to want to change. One example is lending resources. If I am lending them I feel that I should have to designate which resources I am lending, not have the game choose. Yes, I know I can change it manually, but then I have to do that for both the one I want to send and the one I "unsent".

Unfortunately that's where you'll run into a clash between what players would like to do versus what the rules say. And the game is supposed to enforce the rules. The rules say if you promise a resource, it must be delivered if possible. You don't promise a specific resource, only the quantity and whether they are regular, oil or BPs.

So you may have a resource in mind but if your convoy pipelines get messed up due to enemy submarines, or an early turn end before you can get your convoy chains established, or you just plain goof... well then above all else the game must try to honor the promised lend.

I suppose the game could give you an error message to that effect and not let you deliver anything else until you can satisfy a promised lend, but it may truly be impossible. And that means the program needs to recognize what is possible and what is not. Once it does that, then it should be able to route all the resources.

A lot of players will not want to get into micro-managing such things and will accept the loss of a BP now and then, or saving an oil in Canada when it could have been saved in the UK. Others (and I am one of the others) want to optimize the situation even when their convoy chains have been messed up, and it makes them crazy if they can't.

There's no easy solution.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
And that means the program needs to recognize what is possible and what is not. Once it does that, then it should be able to route all the resources.

FWIW, whatever Steve can do to improve "how" the program performs auto convoy would be a plus. I'm still a WiF novice and struggle with the convoy rules; and some of the issues posted don't exactly make the learning process any easier. I suspect an expert-based optimization algorithm should work fine for most all players, except for some specific convoy tweaks and adjustments that veteran players may want to make.

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
And that means the program needs to recognize what is possible and what is not. Once it does that, then it should be able to route all the resources.

FWIW, whatever Steve can do to improve "how" the program performs auto convoy would be a plus. I'm still a WiF novice and struggle with the convoy rules; and some of the issues posted don't exactly make the learning process any easier. I suspect an expert-based optimization algorithm should work fine for most all players, except for some specific convoy tweaks and adjustments that veteran players may want to make.

I have also thought that a totally manual controlled production planning would be better. However, when that planning which the player makes doesn't comply with the rules, how can MWIF inform the player which rule isn't correctly followed? That's difficult to get through to the players. A message: "please comply with the rules" isn't enough...

I'm not happy with the automatic calculations made by MWIF too, because they don't give an optimal solution for production planning. This last thing to me is more serious, because if MWIF can't optimize production, the AI will also suffer from this. I believe MWIF always need be able to compute an optimal production planning, if only too make sure the AI in the future will do the same. Optimal production is a must in MWIF...

Also, there is the player. He puts in defaults (I want that resource to always go to that factory or save that oil always in that port) and overrides (I want this resource to go there this turn only). All these decisions hamper MWIF to make an optimal production planning when a convoy chain gets broken...

I would like to have a button: "erase all defaults and overrides and recompute", so MWIF starts calculating from scratch. However that only works if the program gives a optimal solution and doesn't do strange things like choosing the wrong sea area to transport resources so that other resources don't get to a factory.

But even then. I'm not the same player as Paul, or Lex, or Pzgndr, or... Every player makes his own decision which oil needs to be saved where in an oil game. Some players even want to micromanage everything themselves...

The forms themselves are also quite difficult to understand. One needs to spend a lot of time to get familiar with those. It took me a very, very long time to get to understand what is needed to get the CW right.

The only thing I can say is: watch the video's on production planning, be patient and invest a lot of time in this. After the 10th. or 15th. time your convoy chain in MWIF gets broken on the CW side, you suddenly conclude: "That's how it has to be done" and fix things in a short amount of time.

There isn't a simply solution, I'm afraid...

First, my problem is that I haven't always been able to get the program to allow changes in the convoy route. As I understand it, if you clear the defaults and check the radio button for "route," then you should either get a blank slate to re-structure the convoy route, or else you should be able to right click on the link in the route you want to change and then re-structure from there. What has been happening fairly often is that when I right click on the convoy link, the route switches to the default that I have just cleared, and then it won't let me change it.

Second, the color of the convoys (and transports and subs) is because I have added aircraft units to the counter mix. The original special counter mix uses 22 pages of bitmap images. If you add more the 22 pages (26 in my case), then the images on the pages after 22 don't register. In my case that includes all the transports, subs, convoys, so they show as white. If anyone knows of a way to get the program to register bitmaps after the 22nd, I'd appreciate the tip.

My problem has been that I haven't always been able to get the program to allow changes in the convoy route. As I understand it, if you clear the defaults and check the radio button for "route," then you should either get a blank slate to re-structure the convoy route, or else you should be able to right click on the link in the route you want to change and then re-structure from there. What has been happening fairly often is that when I right click on the convoy link, the route switches to the default that I have just cleared, and then it won't let me change it. Sometimes I get a message saying that I can't change an all land route, but that doesn't make sense, since I'm trying to change a convoy route.

As I mentioned in the Tech Support thread, the only time I was seeing that error message about an all-land route was after a Recompute when I did not notice that the resource I was working on was no longer selected and instead a different resource at the top of the list was now selected. What makes this worse is that the route list doesn't change, which in turn makes you think you are still working with the one from before the Recompute, and then when you right click on the route list again, you get that error message.

This is one part of the interface that clearly could use improvement.

I have been getting the message when I am on the correct resource.

HAS PRODUCTION CHANGED?

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Unfortunately that's where you'll run into a clash between what players would like to do versus what the rules say. And the game is supposed to enforce the rules. The rules say if you promise a resource, it must be delivered if possible. You don't promise a specific resource, only the quantity and whether they are regular, oil or BPs.

I have to point out that the rule in WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf says that there is specific resource or BP being assigned to be shipped.

Otherwise how do you explain the portion of the rule that states "the convoy points were not set up"?

EXAMPLE

During a Lending Stage the CW agrees to give a resource to France. During the production step this will require the CW to assign a resource to be shipped.

During a Lending Stage the CW agrees to Lend Lease a BP to France. During the production step this will require the CW to assign a BP to be shipped.


BUT IF THE CW DOESN'T SET UP A CONVOY ROUTE

If the CW has an Trade agreement to France from an allocated resource (say from Australia) the CW resource is lost.
If the CW has an Lend lease agreement to lend France a allocated BP the CW BP is lost.



[quoote]5. Lending Stage

If, during production (see 13.6 Production), it is possible for the promised resources (or build points) to be delivered then they must be delivered. If you cannot meet the promise you made (for example because the convoy points were not set up, were destroyed, or a railway line cut), you still cannot use them yourself this turn.

[/quote]

13.6.4 Lend lease
Transport
Promised build points that can’t be transported are lost.

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)
You can save oil resources you used neither in production nor to reorganise units. A major power can only save oil if it was transported to a city or port it controls. Put an oil resource marker on that city or port to indicate how many oil
resources you are saving there.

I agree the number promised is lost, delivered or not.

If you are disputing that you can specify what goes where, please provide a rules quote.

> or saving an oil in Canada when it could have been saved in the UK.

Why is it so important to save oil in UK instead of Canada? I used to save American oil in Canada to save convoy units. Is it bad? (And I love micromanagement )

It is nice to have a oil reserve in UK that you can use for production locally, or reorganization, if the convoy lines are broken during the end of turn.

5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

AfA option 48: (Oil) You must also announce how many of the resources given are oil (see 13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)).

This states that you allocate resources/oil/BP to be given/lend leased on the next turn.

Further down the rules state.

5. Lending Stage
If, during production (see 13.6 Production), it is possible for the promised resources (or build points) to be delivered then they must be delivered. If you cannot meet the promise you made (for example because the convoy points were not set up, were destroyed, or a railway line cut), you still cannot use them yourself this turn.

During production you establish which convoy routes are to be used to ship which resources/BP.



If a player chooses they don't have to establish a convoy route for given/lend leased resources/BP.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Unfortunately that's where you'll run into a clash between what players would like to do versus what the rules say. And the game is supposed to enforce the rules. The rules say if you promise a resource, it must be delivered if possible. You don't promise a specific resource, only the quantity and whether they are regular, oil or BPs.

True, the agreement is for a number of resources/BP. But Paul's statement is incorrect since the resource/BP must have been allocated on the previous turn for the agreement.


Also remember the convoy route owner decides which losses of resources/BP will be taken in a convoy route with insufficient CP's.

You state how much you are lending in the same turn it is lent, not the previous turn.

The convoy route owner(s) must adhere to: "If, during production (see 13.6 Production), it is possible for the promised resources (or build points) to be delivered then they must be delivered." Therefore, lends take precedence over transporting other resources, regardless.

Again, if you say a specific resource can be lent versus only announcing the quantity thereof, then provide a rules citation that supports that statement.

The rules for lending and rules for the starting Trade Agreements are the same, so this quote from the FAQ may help you:

Q5.1-2
Q: For at-start Trade Agreements, must the RP and BPs provided by JA, US, GE, and RU come from their respective home countries?

A: No, but they must satisfy rule 5., that is they must be delivered if possible. Example: After Russia has conquered Persia, Russia couldn't give the coastal Persian oil to Germany as part satisfaction of their trade agreement unless there were convoys in position to send them to Germany AND the owner of those transports is allowed, and agrees, to ship them. In all other cases the Russians would instead have to transport the resources by rail from the USSR to Germany directly.

It is outrageous and disgraceful that this long after the release of the game, that these huge defects have not been fixed.

As a new player to WiF, I experienced this same sentiment initially. But I've come to realize that there is a core of folks who are trying to make the game better. I'm guessing they are not getting the financial and personnel support necessary for WiF to compete with other studios' games. Eventually, the diligent work will pay off and WiF will be a game that can go toe-to-toe with its competition. I do want this to be a game that I can play with my friends, but I do not think the "bang-for-the-buck" ratio is quite there yet.