Matrix Games Forums

I'm noticing strange behavior. For several weeks now I've been noticing escorts being scuttled, but not from combat damage, in my "backfield" SLOC. A long time ago, I set up CS convoys. I finally looked into it this turn, and it looks like even though I have the TFs set to "Full Refuel" and the ships with plenty of fuel, they aren't giving the escorts anything to drink. So far I've lost 2 AMs and 2 SCs in this manner.

Has anybody else noticed this? Am I missing something, or is this a potential bug that I should post up in Tech Support? I'm leaning bug, but since I haven't been paying that much attention to these convoys (and because my convoys as Japan are such short distance between nodes so don't need to refuel at sea)...

I have another CS convoy that I can check on the upcoming turn with 1 escort at 42 Endurance remaining. I'll be watching to see if the merchants give it any fuel.

Odd that they aren't pulling fuel from the merchant ships. They should be.

The only difference I see between your CS convoy and one of mine is that you have yours set to cruise speed, while mine are set to mission speed. That *could* be causing the issue...in not letting the convoy stop as needed to draw bunker fuel for the escorts.

See mine below:

Never had such problems with my long haul Japanese CS convoys. Walks and talks like a bug to me. Does "replenish at sea" button top off those escorts?

Been using CS convoys religiously with the Allies over multiple games and have never seen this problem occur.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Odd that they aren't pulling fuel from the merchant ships. They should be.

The only difference I see between your CS convoy and one of mine is that you have yours set to cruise speed, while mine are set to mission speed. That *could* be causing the issue...in not letting the convoy stop as needed to draw bunker fuel for the escorts.

See mine below:

Setting to Computer control defaults the setting to cruise speed, which then remains when it is set to CS convoy. I should note that all of my other CS convoys are on cruise speed as well, and I have many others that do seem to be refueling their escorts. But these ones aren't.

This is just so odd.

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Never had such problems with my long haul Japanese CS convoys. Walks and talks like a bug to me. Does "replenish at sea" button top off those escorts?

Yep, I manually refueled the ones in the screenshot. I'm letting the 42 Endurance one go to see if it draws any fuel from the merchants this coming turn. In most cases, TFs don't seem to let ships get to that low of an Endurance value unless the maximum Endurance of the ship in question is also on the low side (think Allied barges here, with 120 or so Endurance), or unless the other ships in the TF don't have a minimum level of fuel themselves and so have no "extra" to give to the ship that's out.

There might be a bug in play here but not necessarily so.  Simply insufficient info to date to be very definitive.
 
A few observations for Lokasenna to take into account as he tracks the behaviour.
 
1.  The auto refuelling routines for CS controlled task forces is different from all other types of human controlled.  The differences have not been spelled out by the devs which is partly why this is a candidate for a potential bug.  Most likely causation area involves the auto below 70% underway top off from bunkers of human controlled task forces not occurring for CS controlled task forces.
 
2.  There were early AE refuelling issues with CS controlled task forces which are very large/operating to or from smallish ports.  Basically if a CS task force was too large to dock or the port manager had run out of operations points before it handled the CS, no refuelling from the port was occurring.  This apparently was addressed in patch 1/2 but maybe something fell through the cracks.  Quite possible as not that many seem to use CS and certainly not many post about their CS experience late in the war.
 
3.  Waypoints could be part of the problem.
 
 
Don Bowen's comment's in this thread provide some context.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503247&mpage=1&key=refueling&#2503375
 
Alfred

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There might be a bug in play here but not necessarily so.  Simply insufficient info to date to be very definitive.

A few observations for Lokasenna to take into account as he tracks the behaviour.

1.  The auto refuelling routines for CS controlled task forces is different from all other types of human controlled.  The differences have not been spelled out by the devs which is partly why this is a candidate for a potential bug.  Most likely causation area involves the auto below 70% underway top off from bunkers of human controlled task forces not occurring for CS controlled task forces.
In my PBM they do refuel correctly.

2.  There were early AE refuelling issues with CS controlled task forces which are very large/operating to or from smallish ports.  Basically if a CS task force was too large to dock or the port manager had run out of operations points before it handled the CS, no refuelling from the port was occurring.  This apparently was addressed in patch 1/2 but maybe something fell through the cracks.  Quite possible as not that many seem to use CS and certainly not many post about their CS experience late in the war.

3.  Waypoints could be part of the problem.
Also in my PBM they refuel at sea just fine even with waypoints set a) at sea, or b) at ports along the way.


Don Bowen's comment's in this thread provide some context.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503247&mpage=1&key=refueling&#2503375

Alfred

Aside from possible bugs, there is only one thing I can think of (I have not recently reviewed the threads Alfred cited). At sea fueling requires that the ship(s) providing fuel be above some threshold of endurance versus endurance-required. I don't know what that threshold is, but it is not overly restrictive although it is present.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There might be a bug in play here but not necessarily so.  Simply insufficient info to date to be very definitive.

A few observations for Lokasenna to take into account as he tracks the behaviour.

1.  The auto refuelling routines for CS controlled task forces is different from all other types of human controlled.  The differences have not been spelled out by the devs which is partly why this is a candidate for a potential bug.  Most likely causation area involves the auto below 70% underway top off from bunkers of human controlled task forces not occurring for CS controlled task forces.
In my PBM they do refuel correctly.

2.  There were early AE refuelling issues with CS controlled task forces which are very large/operating to or from smallish ports.  Basically if a CS task force was too large to dock or the port manager had run out of operations points before it handled the CS, no refuelling from the port was occurring.  This apparently was addressed in patch 1/2 but maybe something fell through the cracks.  Quite possible as not that many seem to use CS and certainly not many post about their CS experience late in the war.

3.  Waypoints could be part of the problem.
Also in my PBM they refuel at sea just fine even with waypoints set a) at sea, or b) at ports along the way.


Don Bowen's comment's in this thread provide some context.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503247&mpage=1&key=refueling�

Alfred

Aside from possible bugs, there is only one thing I can think of (I have not recently reviewed the threads Alfred cited). At sea fueling requires that the ship(s) providing fuel be above some threshold of endurance versus endurance-required. I don't know what that threshold is, but it is not overly restrictive although it is present.

I was trying to mention that threshold in my previous post. However, the ships in these convoys are clearly above it.


I will have to doublecheck... but these might be my only CS convoys in this particular game using waypoints. However, as Japan I have used waypoints on CS convoys and not had escorts blow themselves up by not refueling from their charges.

If it does turn out to be the waypoints causing the problem, let us know. I'd like to avoid these problems in my games, as the IJN has enough issues to deal with...especially later on. [;)]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Been using CS convoys religiously with the Allies over multiple games and have never seen this problem occur.

I have but only with tankers and sometimes with small xAK. In his pick the top one has only TKs, the second has one TK and some small xAK but the last one looks OK.

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Been using CS convoys religiously with the Allies over multiple games and have never seen this problem occur.

I have but only with tankers and sometimes with small xAK. In his pick the top one has only TKs, the second has one TK and some small xAK but the last one looks OK.

Another TF, which I didn't picture here because it actually lost both of its 2 escorts to this, was xAKs only.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If it does turn out to be the waypoints causing the problem, let us know. I'd like to avoid these problems in my games, as the IJN has enough issues to deal with...especially later on. [;)]

Only one more turn so far. The third TF is currently at its destination unloading, so I won't see if it's refueled that thirsty escort for another day or two.

To clarify, waypoints work fine for me (they do not screw up escort refueling).

The third TF in my screenshot above refueled its YMS in the next turn. That TF does not have any waypoints set.

I really have no idea what's going on here with the ones that didn't refuel.

I haven't noticed any of this behavior recurring, but the convoys in question have also been disbanded for repairs.

The convoy at Kusaie departed for its port of origin and refueled the escort as normal. That convoy doesn't have waypoints assigned...