Matrix Games Forums

2 of the 3 16th PD regiments refuse to with draw.

and the 24th PD

What do divisions now with draw by regiments?

Back to normal in the house, so the war goes on.

Thats a big difference, what do we do from here?

2 of the 3 16th PD regiments refuse to with draw.

What elements are they missing?

I've seen the same thing, where various units hang around a long time because they can't get their TOE high enough.
It's seems like the Germans produce about 1 dozen armored cars a year...

I've had some success placing OKW within 5 hexes and making sure there is a depot under the unit.

I am having the same problem in my game against QBall where I am the Allies. I have an Indian division in the South of France that has been "withdrawing" for about 3 months now. But it has not been broken down into brigades. I also have 3 British Brigades in Ireland also "withdrawing". Not sure how long they have been there as I only discovered them by chance when my 17th Airborne respawned there after being destroyed.

Pelton, are these units under the minimum TOE% for withdrawal?

I have seen that as well, but it's almost always because the unit is missing an element to get up to 75% TOE. For the Germans, the bottleneck is armored cars or SP Flak, both of which suffer way more losses than can ever be replaced

It shouldnt' have an impact on the game, other than a) they consume supplies, and b) if the Allies get really far into Germany, they may encounter some...but they are in not really useful places anyway

ORIGINAL: KWG

Thats a big difference, what do we do from here?

PS: It's not a game changer at all; the units are fixed/frozen in place. Unless you are about to roll into Innsbruck or along the Baltic Coast, you will not encounter them.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: KWG

Thats a big difference, what do we do from here?

PS: It's not a game changer at all; the units are fixed/frozen in place. Unless you are about to roll into Innsbruck or along the Baltic Coast, you will not encounter them.

Thanks!, What about for the Germans, are the frozen units drawing supplies and other stuff from the West instead of the East?

ORIGINAL: KWG

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: KWG

Thats a big difference, what do we do from here?

PS: It's not a game changer at all; the units are fixed/frozen in place. Unless you are about to roll into Innsbruck or along the Baltic Coast, you will not encounter them.

Thanks!, What about for the Germans, are the frozen units drawing supplies and other stuff from the West instead of the East?

The units do draw replacements from the West, but that is WAD; the reason they stay on the map is so the German player doesn't intentionally run down units scheduled to withdraw, and allow a shell to go East, basically. They do consume supplies; shouldn't be a lot though since they are not in combat

Q-Ball

Thanks again, I forgot all about that.

Its been 25 turns and this unit is still here wth?

Peltonx vs MR.Floppy

Same sht going on with Peltonx vs KWG

Now that you gave me a specific game and unit to check, I was able to download your save and seed the situation. In this case, the unit is set to supply priority 1, which means it will only to attempt replacements on the items that are less than 30% of TOE (there are a couple of these, and I assume that's why you got 20 men on the last turn). You will probably never get to the required manpower for the unit to be withdrawn. The unit also is failing it's admin rolls as it reports directly to OKW that is a long way away from the unit. The nearest depot is also over the mountains from the unit so anything that gets shipped to the unit is taking a long truck ride.

I don't see a bug in this case, however I do see an exploit. The rules about withdrawal were set up so that a unit would rebuild to the 75% required, but by setting the supply priority to 1, you're getting around this. Just as we automatically set units to refit when withdrawing, we should set the unit to supply priority 4 and not allow it to be reset (assuming we can do this at the unit level for these units instead of at the HQ level). I have noted this on our task list for WitE2 and hopefully we can add a fix for both WitW and WitE2 in a coming update.

Now, as for other issues, I ask you to please post a specific MP game with a specific situation/unit to look at when you see a problem. When you post screenshots showing the unit to look at this is golden when combined with a save or usernames of an MP game to download. Between all the games previously released and games in development, there are tons of reports to sift through and those without specific info and saves don't get much attention.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Now that you gave me a specific game and unit to check, I was able to download your save and seed the situation.
In this case, the unit is set to supply priority 1, which means it will only to attempt replacements on the items
that are less than 30% of TOE (there are a couple of these, and I assume that's why you got 20 men on the last turn).
You will probably never get to the required manpower for the unit to be withdrawn. The unit also is failing it's admin
rolls as it reports directly to OKW that is a long way away from the unit. The nearest depot is also over the mountains
from the unit so anything that gets shipped to the unit is taking a long truck ride.

I don't see a bug in this case, however I do see an exploit. The rules about withdrawal were set up so that a unit would
rebuild to the 75% required, but by setting the supply priority to 1, you're getting around this. Just as we automatically
set units to refit when withdrawing, we should set the unit to supply priority 4 and not allow it to be reset (assuming we
can do this at the unit level for these units instead of at the HQ level). I have noted this on our task list for WitE2 and
hopefully we can add a fix for both WitW and WitE2 in a coming update.

Now, as for other issues, I ask you to please post a specific MP game with a specific situation/unit to look at when you see
a problem. When you post screenshots showing the unit to look at this is golden when combined with a save or usernames of an
MP game to download. Between all the games previously released and games in development, there are tons of reports to sift through
and those without specific info and saves don't get much attention.

Players should not have to baby sit withdrawing units

Pelton, I think you took my comment in a way it was unintended. As I read my post again I can see you might think I was saying you were exploiting the system. I didn't mean it that way. I meant that the way the rules are written the players could exploit this if they wanted to. It also means that players can do nothing and it still might happen. So I'm actually agreeing with you that it's poor design (not a bug because there's nothing in the rules that forces the supply priority to go up). It was in unintended effect of the supply priority system when it was added on top of how withdrawals are handled. Something that until now no one had noticed. If it takes thousands of players over a year to figure out that this can happen (and only after I was given a shown a save to see the situation), you can see why it doesn't get caught during testing with tens of people.

This bad design generally helps German players in a way unintended, and I agree it should be changed. It's on our list and I'd expect it will be fixed. My suggestion until then is for German players to try to set supply priorities to 4 for units that are withdrawing (although I realize this isn't always easy because it has to be done at the HQ level, not the unit level.

I stand by my request to get specific issues and saves (or MP usernames for a game I can download) as this is how we together get to the bottom of these issues, most of which can be explained by the complexity of the games and unintended consequences of adding additional layers of rules and complexity intended to improve the games. I'm going to delete your post in the other thread as I don't want us to have to keep repeating posts in two threads, when this is the one dealing with the issue you brought up.