Matrix Games Forums

Firstly, kudos to my opponent Gargamor for engineering a masterstroke. RIP entire German 16th Army in 4 days.

However...that said, it does raise a few questions. I've tried to attach a few screenshots that the game autocreated but they are too large. I'll try work out a way later. However in short then on pushing into the woodline north of Pskov, the soviets launch a counterattack which successfully pushes back a division and army HQ. Start of next turn the whole army is immobile and can't counterattack to extracate itself. Next turn they are systematically picked off and the entire army evaporates.

So aside from the poor generalship on my part that allowed it to happen, but really if you see the shots later you wouldnt really think I was taking many outrageous chances. Gargamor had already shown he was willing to take a very aggressive counterattacking stance (opponents beware...). But the complete lack of mobility struck me as unhistoric to start. And the whole army giving up in 4 days was another. We clearly know this was if nothing else a stubborn bunch who would hold out surrounded for much much longer under tougher circumstances than this. I believe the model failed to handle this well and German units are far too quick to surrender here.

i have only one comment, Stalingrad imo game handles surrenders very well, but there's always room for improvement, this is why the developer wants the metrics left on

German units are far too quick to surrender here.

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Don't put your army HQs in the front line, that's asking for trouble. You got sloppy and paid the price for that. There is never any reason for the German to do this, frankly. The Soviet often has no choice in this thanks to activation woes.

Taking out enemy HQs is a high priority precisely for this reason, you can paralyze the enemy this way.

ORIGINAL: zakblood

i have only one comment, Stalingrad imo game handles surrenders very well, but there's always room for improvement, this is why the developer wants the metrics left on

German units are far too quick to surrender here.

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Ah yes, the famous 4 day siege of Stalingrad where everybody downed tools immediately. I'm not denying that units should surrender, but not immediately in a single turn while morale, efficiency and ammunition where until just the turn before very much fine. Its a delicate balance to change as clearly German units should not hold out indefinately, any to make the same changes to the Soviets and Barbarossa will grind to an unhistoric halt in july. But here there was no opportunity to self-extract, or wait for relief, whereas on the the soviets side they at least get a breakout card to be played.
There are countless examples of hedgehog positions holding out for weeks, Veliki Luki for 2 months. At the moment this just doesn't happen in game. This is an extreme example to lose every division in the same turn, but I don't think it should be ignored as its likely to get more prevalent. I already incorporate counterattacks into playing Soviets, but to his credit Gargamor has taken it to the next level.

Hard to see the Germans letting an entire HQ get exposed and destroyed. I have never to my knowledge ever lost an HQ in any game so far. Best way to avoid this is to keep your HQ back with the supply on the Rail line with a Garrison. It's probably never going to happen again and if you highlight it's command area there are not many units that can reach one. Regardless if you cover your flanks well enough even if you lose one I think you can get them back for a cost. Which is fair... Being completely unable to move at all, perhaps there should be a 'dice' about that... Initiative of Local Commanders

Whilst I agree with the OP that it seems harsh compared to what would have happened in real life, I don't think that this should be changed.

As other posters have said I think this just needs to be written off as poor play while learning the game - and this is not something that should be a problem ordinarily. HQ just need a bit of looking after.

Despite its unrealism, I think what this mechanic does do is stop the Germans taking the mickey - and mean they actually need to think about their advance in the early war.

For the poor Soviets, it does not matter how careful you are, how good a player you are; if the dice god decide you are not activating, then you are not escaping - and your HQ will be toast, with all that means. No reason the German can't suffer the same sanction for wilful poor play.

The OP worries that German units surrender even faster than cutoff Soviets units without an HQ...that does seem odd.

Hi,

After a certain time in an isolated pocket there is a small chance of Soviet units surrendering. Doesn't apply to the Germans.

The standard supply (read ammo) reserve for the Germans is two full turns worth, for the Soviets it's less.

Cut-off German units can dig in and defend a pocket for a considerable period of time IF they have the benefit of resupply by air.

The Germans went to extreme lengths in Barbarossa to avoid having their units cut-off as they typically operated on very thin margins of ammunition. Instead of commencing the campaign with enough ammunition reserve for 12 months of fighting, they started with only 2-3 basic loads (Ausstattungen) with a reserve on hand for only another 20 divisions.

If you are pushing an Army or PG hard it's supply reserve (ammo) will be well down.

If you have them operating outside the range of air support then they will be on their own if it all goes wrong.

Even with this they will survive in a pocket for a considerable period of time.

If an aggressive Soviet player surrounds them and is willing press hard then they'll be toast.

Not because they've run out of food, fuel or fighting spirit but because they've run out of ammunition.

Cheers,
Cameron