Matrix Games Forums

Has anyone created a mod to change the German flags back to their historical designs?

There is somewhere. Only, one should not promote it in this forum, since it might cause a forumblockade for users in Germany and Austria...

I'm not sure what you mean by "promotion"? I've seen other games here in Matrix discuss and create mods for flag and symbol changes to their historical reality with out any controversy (DC Barbarossa recently?). I think that if someone wants to create the mod for this it should be available without any trouble about it.

FYI: Few hate NAZI's more than me, and I hate them for various reasons...the biggest one is my grandfather spent many years in a political prisoner concentration camp.

Perhaps, but still I would advice caution where this is concerned.

When the boardgame came on the market in Germany, it was banned by the "Bundesverfassungschütz" for not having a permit to show Nazi symbols in the game. ADG got into a lot of trouble trying to get to lift the ban on owning and selling the game in Germany. Sure, that was about 20 years ago, but ADG doesn't sell the game in Europe anymore with Swastika symbols on it.

But more troublesome are the things which are happening in the last couple of years in both Austria and Germany.

Not two years ago, an official première of a WW II Slovenian movie in Austria was invaded by the Vienna police, since the producers forgot to get a permit to show that film, because of the use of Nazi symbols in the movie...

At this very moment, several legal procedures are running in Germany against major internet companies like Facebook and Google, since they don't block or filter out pro-nazi websites in Germany if they are made in countries outside of Germany.

Personally, I believe the increasing pressure from right wing political groups in Germany and Austria (due to the refugee situation) has something to do with all these actions from the Constitutional police in both countries. It is becoming more dangerous for foreign companies to use nazi symbols in Germany at this moment...

I'm not suggesting Matrix change what they are doing here...MWiF does not sell with NAZI symbols out of the box (or download). I'm just asking about a privately developed MOD (not even developed by any employee of Matrix). If its ok for other Matrix games that German and Austrian players can play, why not this one?

I remember playing at Euro-WiFcon...my buddy and I brought our own game from the US. The three Danish guys we played with didn't even flinch about the swastika's we used to mark German conquests. Then one day when the 5 of us came back from lunch, we returned to see damage markers on all the swastika's...we were confused as to why and who would do this...then comes running in the host of the con, sweaty brow, big eyes, and nervous voice asking us to remove the swastika's or the con might lose the location ("It is not allowed in Germany"). The 5 of us looked at each other like this guy was crazy. We of course removed them and laughed about how ridiculous this was for the remaining days of the con. The report of this to our other gamers here when we returned got hysterical laughs and still to this day we bring it up on occasion to laughs and shaking heads.

Blocking and filtering in Europe? Wow! I thought only China did this? I recall something regarding burning of books in 1933?, and free speech being a human right especially when we disagree with it?...although perhaps these are American sensibilities which might be why the trouble with Fakebook and Google. Constitutional police???...are there really these type of police in Europe?

Seems to me anti-establishment mentality is a world-wide movement at the moment.

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I can understand that one do not agree with the law. But at the same time I think we all should respect the law. And from what I see at the internet I even understand the need for the law.

Yeah, there are lots of cultural differences between Europe and the US. These cultural differences and history baggage lead to different taboos. Nazism taboo is strong in Germany and Austria for their history, and actual current rebirth of neonazism.

But we don’t have the US taboos about racism and slavery. “Black”, “negro”, “indian” words don’t have a derogative meaning. There are no discussions because someone said f*** on the tv, or a nipple was shown.

Different societies, different history, different cultural heritage.

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I personally would not bad an eyelid if there was a swastika to the german units. It is historical for the timeline present. But neither I am bothered by the regular cross (like the Luftwaffe one).

I am not sure from where it stems the need of changing what in the end has to be just a crystal clear identificator of nationality. German units are gray. Good. I know they're the gray lot. (I am actually puzzled why gray, most of the other countries, in all the games, somehow echo of a colour of their national flag or military uniform).

But I understand legal complications in some countries and the policies that impact the forums and talking of a specific matter.

Thing is, these laws were not made by Germany or Austria themselves, but imposed on them by the USSR, the United States, Britain and France in the 1950's when both countries were again created.

Both Germany and Austria cannot even change these laws. Only if the UN security counsel agrees on such changes, the constitution of both countries can be changed regarding these particular laws. And it gets even more ridiculous. Theoretically, Germany can be invaded by those four countries without warning, if they decide not to uphold these laws...

This is due to the fact that both countries don't exist anymore, if they don't uphold their constitutions to the limits of national and international law. This is the main problem the large internetcompanies have today in Germany. Those companies need to ask the Allies if they would like to change these laws...

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Thing is, these laws were not made by Germany or Austria themselves, but imposed on them by the USSR, the United States, Britain and France in the 1950's when both countries were again created.

Both Germany and Austria cannot even change these laws. Only if the UN security counsel agrees on such changes, the constitution of both countries can be changed regarding these particular laws.

I didn't know such thing could even exist. I researched through Wikipedia, and found the "eternity clause" of their constitution, although no reference to swatikas

These comments say everything…. You think you are so superior – bashing the stupid British at every opportunity, and then widening that to dumb Europeans as suits your blinkered “thoughts” at the time.

Why thank you Warspite! Actually, Warspite, I was only re-telling a true story...and the three Danish guys from Arhus, Denmark (Europe in case you don't know...Battle of Jutland was near this country) were just as surprised and dumbfounded about what had just happened as the two of us from the US were (these guys attended Euro-WiFcon recently. Maybe if you go there and ask around you might find them...ask them about this yourself). Nowhere did I mention anything about being superior, about the stupid British, or "dumb" Europeans. You need to stop putting your own personal contexts into what people write (you do this all the time) and change your avatar to a straw man. FYI: I have cousins in Germany that I am very close to and do business in Europe, and my wife and her family are Swedish...so I do not at all view Europeans as "dumb", although I do disagree with what the establishment leaders there have done for quite some time now, but that's political.

Thank you for your advise concerning what is a mis-guided route. As for the Confederate flag, I completely agree with what you write.

People will always fly/display the Confederate flag no matter what (considered heritage by many)...it is on tax payer owned property that it is being removed from (the Christian cross and the Ten Commandments are also having this same problem).
You could extend this controversy to the Rising sun flag (still flown on Japanese warships), and the Soviet hammer and sickle.

The issue of Japanese apologizing for what they did only comes up in the context of their complaints over what we did to them (A-bombs...which by the way saved many lives on both sides)...other-wise its never discussed really.

Its been widely discussed for many years here in the US how the Germans (and Japanese) need to change their Constitutions to allow for more flexibility concerning involvement in warfare.

If it becomes law in the US that Confederate flags can not be used in games, I will join you in that disgust.

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Thing is, these laws were not made by Germany or Austria themselves, but imposed on them by the USSR, the United States, Britain and France in the 1950's when both countries were again created.

Both Germany and Austria cannot even change these laws. Only if the UN security counsel agrees on such changes, the constitution of both countries can be changed regarding these particular laws.

I didn't know such thing could even exist. I researched through Wikipedia, and found the "eternity clause" of their constitution, although no reference to swatikas

It's a little basic on the English Wikipedia, but this might interest you too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_O ... nstitution

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I really doubt games in the USA will ever have to worry about using the Confederate flag. Debates about such are over the _public_ display of it. Our Constitution is quite different than what I read here about the German legal structures, which was very interesting, thanks.

Every winter I work in the Mid-Atlantic states and sometimes the deeper south as well. I find it to be quite an irony that the one state where I see the most Confederate flags is West Virginia. I sometimes tweak the people displaying it when I can, pointing out to them that West Virginia was the one state to secede _from_ the Confederacy. The state with the second most feels like Kentucky to me - and that state was officially Neutral in the Civil War. I have just an unscientific (i.e., without any data whatsoever) opinion that I see more of the Rebel flag in those two states than in the actual Confederacy. But then I saw one driving down a backroad in Michigan today too.

If you are interested in American opinions on our Civil War, 150 years later, I suggest reading the book "Confederates in the Attic" which examines many things related to how current Americans view the war.

From my experience, another place you will see a lot of Confederate flags is in north Florida/SE Alabama/SW Georgia. Lived in Tallahassee for 5 years through 1993. Not sure if its still the case though.

ooppss...move along...

I assume this is what you have a problem with Warspite?

Here I am re-telling a story that happened in 2004 at EuroWiFcon. Its about what happened when 5 guys (2 from the US and 3 from Denmark) played WiF there. You might disagree with what our reactions were when this happened, and you are entitled to your opinion, and maybe if you had been there you might have said something to the 5 of us (which would have been very interesting!). As it happened, we respected the wishes of the con organizer and had no desire to make any trouble for him or the future of the con at that locationI remember playing at Euro-WiFcon...my buddy and I brought our own game from the US. The three Danish guys we played with didn't even flinch about the swastika's we used to mark German conquests. Then one day when the 5 of us came back from lunch, we returned to see damage markers on all the swastika's...we were confused as to why and who would do this...then comes running in the host of the con, sweaty brow, big eyes, and nervous voice asking us to remove the swastika's or the con might lose the location ("It is not allowed in Germany"). The 5 of us looked at each other like this guy was crazy. We of course removed them and laughed about how ridiculous this was for the remaining days of the con. The report of this to our other gamers here when we returned got hysterical laughs and still to this day we bring it up on occasion to laughs and shaking heads.

Blocking and filtering in Europe? Wow! I thought only China did this?

You might think this a snide remark, but in truth this comes as a big surprise to me.

I recall something regarding burning of books in 1933?,

This is a snide remark, and I'm not sorry for it. Blocking and filtering in my opinion is wrong and is the internet version of what happened in 1933 with books and opinions. You might disagree. Ok.

and free speech being a human right especially when we disagree with it?...although perhaps these are American sensibilities which might be why the trouble with Fakebook and Google.

And? The only speech needing protecting is speech we disagree with. If human beings agreed on everything there would be no need to the First Amendment to the US Constitution...which by the way is a protection from/against the government. This is why Fakebook and Google are the way they are because of the US culture concerning speech.

Constitutional police???...are there really these type of police in Europe?

Again as the first above, I had no idea this actually existed and I am simply asking. My wife says there is no such thing in Sweden that she knows of. Perhaps its only a German/Austrian thing.

So, I'm not sure where 'superiority' comes into play, or that the British are stupid, or that Europeans are dumb. This is your imagination. I think I am also allowed to disagree with what I see/hear/experience, and opine on it?

It seems you are trolling me...you keep mentioning that you wont respond to me, and then you do. You are too easy Warspite. That green button would make it easy for you (I have a Lulu post coming up soon on the F1 thread). Lets see...you, Neilster, Carnage, Aurelian...can you expand on the list? One more and I'm an ace.

PS: Australia as a Republic and King George the VI...oohhh...I'm sorry, my bad...can I blame being a stupid American on these two? As for the Canadians as ANZAC, I now have seen you write this twice...since you often fail to understand my American English, perhaps you can link me to that moment? This could be highly embarrassing to me since I knew/know they were not...did I actually write that? Take your whack at me.
PSS: See post #1 on this thread. That's all I wanted, and then you came along.

Lets see...you, Neilster, Carnage, Aurelian...can you expand on the list? One more and I'm an ace.

No I won't expand. These are the forum regulars that, like me, have made public to you their feelings in response to repeated troll behaviour. I won't mention those who have done so privately as that is not fair. For normal people that list would be a concern because normal people don't seek to be disliked. But the fact that you delight in it says everything about you, your immaturity level, and what you are trying to "achieve" here.....

I have deleted my posts because, while I stand by every word + much more besides, on reflection I am disappointed that I have allowed myself to be repeatedly brought down to your sorry level.

But one point - you stated

See post #1 on this thread. That's all I wanted, and then you came along.

Please don't lie. You went off on one of your rants before I came along and indeed was the reason for my original post.