Matrix Games Forums

Michael,

I had thought I noticed this once before, but this time I am certain. River-crossing shock attacks are not occurring even when the crossed hex side is defender-owned, in the case where there are already attacker units in the base (having arrived from another hex side on prior turns).

If I understand correctly, the shock attack is supposed to take place unless the attacker units that previously crossed the river have AV 1/3 or greater the defender AV, signifying that they have a beach head large enough to cross safely. In this case my (attacker) units had never crossed that river hex side previously and it was defender owned.

There was an attack by the units already in the base because I ordered a deliberate attack to hopefully lessen the burden of the shock attack. The disruption in the various units afterwards shows that the units ordered to deliberate attack did so, but the units which crossed the river clearly did not attack.

Here is the ending turn save that leads to the crossing.

Edit to add: Look at Chengtu.

Here is a screen pic with hex side control displayed that shows the hex side is owned by the defender.

Here is the battle report.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Chengtu (75,41)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25893 troops, 105 guns, 51 vehicles, Assault Value = 1856

Defending force 32251 troops, 209 guns, 22 vehicles, Assault Value = 1010

Allied adjusted assault: 452

Japanese adjusted defense: 2269

Allied assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
658 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2053 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 279 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 12 disabled

Assaulting units:
11th (East African) Division
6th Australian Division
120th Red Chinese Division
54th Chinese Corps
23rd Indian Division
95th Chinese Corps
11th Group Army
7th War Area
6th Mixed A/T Mtr Regiment
NCAC
1st Group Army
272/273rd Bty 80th AT Gun Regiment
22nd Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
55th Infantry Brigade
13th RGC Temp. Division
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
15th RGC Temp. Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Regiment
Kanno
36th/B Division


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is the disruption (not) shown by the units that crossed. There might have been another of the HQ that crossed.

In my PBEM game (1.7.11.25.10) patch, playing RA 8.1 mod
I forgot about the river crossing into Chengchow and triggered a shock attack.

Dec 20, 1941:

Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)

Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 24875 troops, 207 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 721
Defending force 18097 troops, 88 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 409
Japanese adjusted assault: 495
Allied adjusted defense: 290

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)
Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1972 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1426 casualties reported
Squads: 26 destroyed, 97 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 16 (4 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Assaulting units:
110th Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
40th Chinese/B Corps
98th Chinese/B Corps
40th Chinese/A Corps
98th Chinese/A Corps
40th Chinese/C Corps
8th New Chinese Corps
15th Chinese Corps
98th Chinese/C Corps
1st War Area
24th Group Army
39th Group Army

Not terrible, but not exactly what I was planning.
But shock attack is happening sometimes.
If posting a save of my game will help in the investigation, please let me know.

I didn't mean to imply that it never happens. I'm not even sure that it will always fail to happen in specific circumstances (maybe a random element??), but I was able to catch this instance pretty well documented.

Forgot to mention: like Dan, my opponent and I are using the latest Beta.

I wasn't trying to highjack or derail your report.

Just offering an easily available comparison if a one were needed where shock attack did trigger.
I did read your initial report that non-shock attack is unpredictable.

ORIGINAL: DanSez

I wasn't trying to highjack or derail your report.

Just offering an easily available comparison if a one were needed where shock attack did trigger.
I did read your initial report that non-shock attack is unpredictable.

Not at all! You made me realize I should have spelled out some additional detail. [8D]

Perhaps it is because you also ordered a deliberate attack? 2 attacks can't occur.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is because you also ordered a deliberate attack? 2 attacks can't occur.

One attack happens, with some units deliberate and some shock (just consider that arty units always only bombard!). But not this time.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is because you also ordered a deliberate attack? 2 attacks can't occur.

One attack happens, with some units deliberate and some shock (just consider that arty units always only bombard!). But not this time.

Could the crossing troops have used up all their ops points in the movement?

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is because you also ordered a deliberate attack? 2 attacks can't occur.

One attack happens, with some units deliberate and some shock (just consider that arty units always only bombard!). But not this time.

Could the crossing troops have used up all their ops points in the movement?

I thought the river-crossing shock attack was basically a penalty against the attacker, so I doubt that would be it.

Originally the attacker had to shock attack when crossing the river into and enemy controlled hex no matter how much AV the attacker had already crossed. Later the notion was introduced that is a certain level of AV - 1/3 of what the defender has in hex - has already crossed that same river hex side and is still present in the hex (in other words survived!), then the shock attack is not required. The rationale is that the attacker had established a large enough beach head where the defender is not able to maul new arrivals as they are exposed in the water.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Perhaps it is because you also ordered a deliberate attack? 2 attacks can't occur.

One attack happens, with some units deliberate and some shock (just consider that arty units always only bombard!). But not this time.

Could the crossing troops have used up all their ops points in the movement?

I don't think LCUs have ops points.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs



One attack happens, with some units deliberate and some shock (just consider that arty units always only bombard!). But not this time.

Could the crossing troops have used up all their ops points in the movement?

I thought the river-crossing shock attack was basically a penalty against the attacker, so I doubt that would be it.

Originally the attacker had to shock attack when crossing the river into and enemy controlled hex no matter how much AV the attacker had already crossed. Later the notion was introduced that is a certain level of AV - 1/3 of what the defender has in hex - has already crossed that same river hex side and is still present in the hex (in other words survived!), then the shock attack is not required. The rationale is that the attacker had established a large enough beach head where the defender is not able to maul new arrivals as they are exposed in the water.

Yes, but I'm thinking your units shocked (at least those that crossed the river) - however you ordered a deliberate attack with the rest of the units already there, so I think the forced shock attack must have been hidden by that?

But then looking at your units' condition, it looks more likely that they just didn't participate in the attack at all. Which is odd.

But then looking at your units' condition, it looks more likely that they just didn't participate in the attack at all. Which is odd.

That was the whole crux of my being certain that it didn't happened. I am pretty sure that it also didn't happen on some earlier occasions, but this time is very clear so I scooped up the same and pics.

For whatever reason, the allied units are going across river without triggering the 'shock' attack. It is executing the check code okay.
---->
The first allied unit over the river changes the hexside ownership to 'allied' and thus don't shock

I've seen it before so it's not a super rare, but I really don't have a better handle on what might be causing it.

Wrote that last while you were editing.

Ah!