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Single player only
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:49 pm
by JamesM
Just got my voucher from Matrix and am thinking of buying this game. However, I am only interested in single player game as I play allot of my games periodically. My question is; is it worth getting this game and play as it as a single player only?
RE: Single player only
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:28 am
by paulderynck
That's what this game (MWiF) has become famous for.
Edit: I am referring to playing solitaire against oneself, not to playing against an AI.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:01 am
by juntoalmar
I would say, it is particularly worthy to play it as single player (if you mean by that playing against yourself).
Computer AI is not ready yet (and will probably not be in the short term) and multiplayer is complex (as there's many interaction from non phasing player). My solitary games are extremely enjoyable.
I'm not trying to convince you of one thing (or the other) but I hope this helps.
Cheers!
RE: Single player only
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:22 am
by AlbertN
If you can manage to play against yourself - and have fun through that, by all means, it's an excellent game.
If by solitaire you need an AI opponent, seek elsewhere.
Though most of the grand strategy games are meant to be played vs humans, and not vs AI, to give out their best.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:29 am
by Joseignacio
ORIGINAL: Cohen
If you can manage to play against yourself - and have fun through that, by all means, it's an excellent game.
If by solitaire you need an AI opponent, seek elsewhere.
Though most of the grand strategy games are meant to be played vs humans, and not vs AI, to give out their best.
19 years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue ... y_Kasparov
Last year:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaGo
Let´s not be arrogant just because we're humans, it's a matter of time that the IA will beat us all. They are built by experts but make no errors and can process many more times the decision trees that we can follow in a fraction of the time we use.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:25 pm
by paulderynck
In chess you can move one unit per turn. 32 possible moves at the most; likely less. How many moves in an average game? About 40 to 50. So Big Blue can go through about 50 to the power of 25 possible outcomes (less and less as more turns are played) and conclude what the best possible move would be. This is on a board of 64 squares.
WiF has how many impulses, with how many units that can move, with how many combinations of combat outcomes, on a map of how many hexes, combined with how many basic strategies?
Yes, not arrogance, but a reality check on the math and the programming requirements might be a consideration. 19 years before WiF has a competitive AI might be optimistic.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:37 am
by Joseignacio
Yes, and my first computer was a Dragon with 32 KB RAM, back in the 80's, my current one has 8 GB, which is 256 times more. The processor speed was 0,89 Mhz, current speed 4 Ghz, 4.561 times faster. And so on.
As I said, it's a matter of time.
Also, It's true that WIF offers much more possibilities because of the number of pieces, the number of factions, the number of hexes and the length of the game. But if you cut them down to the logic, or useful, or rational, they decrease by 1000/1 at least.
Of course you can invade Tarawa as a German player but it makes no sense, for example.
There are still higher order possibilities than in chess, but just checking the IA threads in this forum you'll see that it's not so complicated if you want to be rational. In fact, I could be wrong and exist less intelligent strategies than in chess. I am no expert in chess.
Of course, you'd have more if you consider that you can send Inf Corps #1,or #2,or #3,or #4,or #5,or #6,... to hex X, but finally unless they have significatively unpaired valours that does not make a difference.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:42 pm
by paulderynck
My first computer was a Commodore PET - the one with the rectangular keyboard. Still could play a wicked game of Space Invaders on it.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:24 pm
by JamesM
Thank you for your advice, I decided to buy the download version of the game as the postage cost would have doubled the discounted cost. Furthermore I used to play the board game as solitaire back in the 80s and enjoyed it, it has just been the cost of this game that stopped me getting.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:05 am
by paulderynck
Ahh - so you weren't an AI-seeker. I know you will value your purchase. Enjoy!
RE: Single player only
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:02 pm
by mavraamides
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
In chess you can move one unit per turn. 32 possible moves at the most; likely less. How many moves in an average game? About 40 to 50. So Big Blue can go through about 50 to the power of 25 possible outcomes (less and less as more turns are played) and conclude what the best possible move would be. This is on a board of 64 squares.
Actually deep blue can't do anything close to that.
50^25 ~= 2.9 x 10^42 positions.
Deep blue can process about 200 million positions per second.
At that rate, it would take about 4.7 X 10^26 years to make a move.
As a comparison, there are roughly 10^24 stars in the known Universe.
Chess computers don't do 25 move deep brute force searches. They are much more sophisticated than that.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:40 pm
by paulderynck
Excellent. The AI for MWiF should be here in less time than that then.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:11 am
by jusi
Chess is even nothing compare to go which has 2.08168199382×10^170 legal positions. 2 years ago, even if computer go programs had made good progress since the early 2000s, the go community thought at least 10 years would be still necessary to have a computer go program as good as professional go player. But, one year ago, alphago was coming and beat a top professional. And now it wins 60 games in a row against top pro and seems unbeatable by human anymore.
Perhaps it is not fully hopeless to have a good MWIF AI one day [:D].
RE: Single player only
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:14 pm
by juntoalmar
ORIGINAL: jusi
Perhaps it is not fully hopeless to have a good MWIF AI one day [:D].
We just need a huge budget... and Google to collect all of our data about production and entry chits. [:D]
RE: Single player only
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:00 pm
by Viktor_Kormel_slith
ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Yes, and my first computer was a Dragon with 32 KB RAM, back in the 80's, my current one has 8 GB, which is 256 times more. The processor speed was 0,89 Mhz, current speed 4 Ghz, 4.561 times faster. And so on.
As I said, it's a matter of time.
Also, It's true that WIF offers much more possibilities because of the number of pieces, the number of factions, the number of hexes and the length of the game. But if you cut them down to the logic, or useful, or rational, they decrease by 1000/1 at least.
Of course you can invade Tarawa as a German player but it makes no sense, for example.
There are still higher order possibilities than in chess, but just checking the IA threads in this forum you'll see that it's not so complicated if you want to be rational. In fact, I could be wrong and exist less intelligent strategies than in chess. I am no expert in chess.
Of course, you'd have more if you consider that you can send Inf Corps #1,or #2,or #3,or #4,or #5,or #6,... to hex X, but finally unless they have significatively unpaired valours that does not make a difference.
I disagree Jose, it is not a matter of time. There is a kind of qualitative troubles about the really AI. Nowdays, the computers just are fast calculating machines, true intelligence is a very different thing. Maybe in far future when the men understand more things like brain or quantum physic it would be possible but no today and not tomorrow. About MWIF AI, I´m not optimist about it, maybe for simple scenarios but not for globaL games, it is a too many complex and very caothic system. [:-]
RE: Single player only
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:46 am
by paulderynck
RE: Single player only
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:49 pm
by mavraamides
One of the things that makes an AI for MWIF so problematic is all of the endless optional rules. It's hard enough to optimize an AI for a fixed set of rules like go or chess but add in the fact that there are probably thousands of rules options each one of which can impact strategy and tactics and you have yourself a huge problem.
It would probably get done faster if they could pick one set of options as sort of 'the standard game' and have an AI for that.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:12 pm
by juntoalmar
ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
It would probably get done faster if they could pick one set of options as sort of 'the standard game' and have an AI for that.
Agree with that.
RE: Single player only
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:56 pm
by Cataphract88
ORIGINAL: juntoalmar
ORIGINAL: GordianKnot
It would probably get done faster if they could pick one set of options as sort of 'the standard game' and have an AI for that.
Agree with that.
Makes good sense.