Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

VR designs has been reinforced with designer Cameron Harris and the result is a revolutionary new operational war game 'Barbarossa' that plays like none other. It blends an advanced counter pushing engine with deep narrative, people management and in-depth semi-randomized decision systems.

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wadortch
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Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hello Vic and Cameron
I have been playing DC3 PBEM since its release and have now completed some 15 or more games. I have played both sides about equally (note that in all but two games as Germans I have chosen the Military Independence Option). I have really enjoyed the game and offer the following comments with an interest in seeing it taken to its next dimension and to fix what appear to be some significant flaws.
I realize that the human vs human dimension to the game is different than the human vs AI (which, I understand is where the broader audience for the game lies) and offer these comments with that understanding and the realization that a fix for PBEM might be contrary to some of the goals of the human vs AI realm. In any case, I think the human vs human is the richest and most competitive arena for playing the game and offer these comments with a view to improve it further. So here goes:
Relationships, Decisions and Cards
- Wagner and the influence he has on the game. Anything that makes him happy makes the Army Group (AG) Commanders unhappy. Example—captured trucks. On the other hand, when decisions are made that adopt his recommendations (truck overhaul and secondments for example) they have no effect on his usual BAD attitude. Once he gets unhappy he appears to exercise way too much power to unhinge things, particularly in the south where his interference with unloading trains and such can paralyze AGS for several turns or more. That may be somewhat historical, but the inability of Halder to change this after 4th PG has sat without fuel for a month seems unhistorical at best. Related to this is the fact that in the game AGS can sit starving for fuel because of lack of trains, while AGN is awash in fuel (7 plus moves worth in the bank). Seems like there should be an option for Halder (or Hitler to intervene) to order some redistribution of train resources to where they are needed particularly if his relationship with Gerke is good and especially if playing the support Hitler option and PG’s headed for his objective stall because of misallocation of trains.
-Start of game relationships. In my most recent game as Germans, I started the game with Bock in a distrustful mood, and it continues with no decisions being presented (the usual ones like captured trucks, rear area security) that will improve Bock’s state of mind. It does not seem reasonable to me that Bock could have withheld the focus of PG’s in AGC from the very first day of the campaign.
-PG reassignment. I have seen the option to redeploy a PG appear once in a Military Independence game and perhaps that was triggered by an AG capturing a major objective (e.g capture of Leningrad producing a card to redeploy 4th PG). I think that should be a nearly certain outcome if it is not already. In the same vein, if playing a “do what Hitler wants scenario” the redeploy a PG card should appear when Hitler changes the objective of the campaign.
Stalin Episodes
-In several games as Soviets, I have had Stalin throw a fit late in the game when the Germans are being crushed. Don’t understand how this can happen when, for example, the turn before 4 panzer divisions were destroyed by the Soviets.
Weather
-Severe weather (frostbite conditions) seems to adversely affect Soviet Activations and most importantly supply, even the 58th army. This does not seem to comport with history and the preparations the Soviets made to operate in such conditions.
Towers of Doom
-I have commented on this topic before and after playing another host of games come back to it. The stacking rules and their effect, on in supply defending stacks in particular, do not seem to be working as designed. I find NO incentive as Soviets to NOT pile up huge stacks, that if in supply and attacked even from 4 hexes by the Germans are 99% of the time unbeatable. There are no exponential losses to the Soviet defenders in such combats and it appears as if all the piled up troops in such a hex fight.
FOW
-It appears to me that too much information is revealed about opposing forces in nearly all circumstances. As Soviets, I shop around looking for German units changing posture, with low AP’s and readiness, etc. and I wonder in a dynamic 4 day turn environment in 1941 just how accurate this kind of intel is, especially for the Soviets. On the other hand, way too little information is displayed (or provided in the intel report) when, as in an ongoing game, Soviet units sneak into Brest-Litovsk (a lonely HQ of all things and an unidentified Soviet unit sits adjacent to AGC HQ in Warsaw. I admit to having missed seeing the changing border of Soviet territory, even so, the notion that a Soviet formation could reach these places without detection seems farfetched (and the HQ in Brest-Litovsk and the other adjacent to Warsaw only appeared with a anti-raider Panzer Division moved adjacent to Brest-Litovsk). See screenshot below. There are a lot of decisions offered related to the rear area security units, perhaps an easy fix that could be considered here would be to actually show some of these units on the map and that they could be moved (as was the case historically) to chase marauding Soviet raiders including very powerful HQ’s (it turns out at is just walked into Brest-Litovsk) sneaking around on their own.
Fuel Shortages
-In my most recent and ongoing game as Germans, all three PG’s are experiencing fuel shortages at the beginning of Turn 3 which has continued into Turn 4. Is this WAD? Hard to believe that this reflects anything historical this early in the campaign and with the PG’s so close to the frontier.
So some ideas for your consideration offered totally in the spirit of making this great game even better.



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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Here's the other screenshot which I could not attach to my previous post. (BTW, I see posts with multiple screenshots attached. How is that done?)

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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by lancer »

Hi Wadortch,

Fifteen games is quite a lot!

That's excellent feedback and we'll give it some thought.

Your screenshots are very small and hard to read. The PG report is highlighting fuel shortages?

Cheers,
Cameron
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hello Cameron!

I will do better in the future getting screenshots to come in just under the size restriction.
Yes, the fuel shot shows all PG's below one quota.

Thanks for considering my input. It's a great game.

Walt
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by lancer »

Hi Wadortch,

I'm away for a short while so I'll tackle this now.
- Wagner and the influence he has on the game. Anything that makes him happy makes the Army Group (AG) Commanders unhappy. Example—captured trucks. On the other hand, when decisions are made that adopt his recommendations (truck overhaul and secondments for example) they have no effect on his usual BAD attitude. Once he gets unhappy he appears to exercise way too much power to unhinge things, particularly in the south where his interference with unloading trains and such can paralyze AGS for several turns or more. That may be somewhat historical, but the inability of Halder to change this after 4th PG has sat without fuel for a month seems unhistorical at best. Related to this is the fact that in the game AGS can sit starving for fuel because of lack of trains, while AGN is awash in fuel (7 plus moves worth in the bank). Seems like there should be an option for Halder (or Hitler to intervene) to order some redistribution of train resources to where they are needed particularly if his relationship with Gerke is good and especially if playing the support Hitler option and PG’s headed for his objective stall because of misallocation of trains.

Wagner and Gercke represent the flaky logistical system that the Germans invaded Russia with. There was constant conflict and argument between all parties and the situation was held together with matches and glue for all of '41. It was a mess from start to finish.

AGS is where your logistical shortcomings will be the most acute due to it being the geographically largest theatre. Whereas a supply line to Leningrad is a fair distance, to Rostov it's an overstretched rubber band. There were several occasions in '41 where the Germans had a PG, or two, immobilised for a month at a time due to logistical problems. When this happens in the game is variable as a lot depends on the decisions that are made but, in general, AGS is the most likely because of the sheer distances involved.

The design of the game has an underlying tension between how far you can push you PG's versus being able to keep them supplied in fuel. It's a lot easier to do one than the other. I'm O.K with what you've described above as being within the realms of a feasible historical outcome. The personality tensions, conflicts and resultant shortages of trains and trucks is about right.

I'd recommend the book 'Supplying War' by Martin Van Creveld if you want a good read on that aspect of Barbarossa. It's what I based that part of the games design on.
-Start of game relationships. In my most recent game as Germans, I started the game with Bock in a distrustful mood, and it continues with no decisions being presented (the usual ones like captured trucks, rear area security) that will improve Bock’s state of mind. It does not seem reasonable to me that Bock could have withheld the focus of PG’s in AGC from the very first day of the campaign.

The decisions are probability based as to when they appear. There are other triggers that influence them but Bock doesn't affect the captured trucks so I'd mark that down as a coincidence.

As far as you and Bock starting the game with a poor relationship, there isn't much point in having this if it didn't affect anything. There's the option to turn past relationships off but Bock's (and Kluge's) views of Guderian in '41 were ambivalent at best.
-PG reassignment. I have seen the option to redeploy a PG appear once in a Military Independence game and perhaps that was triggered by an AG capturing a major objective (e.g capture of Leningrad producing a card to redeploy 4th PG). I think that should be a nearly certain outcome if it is not already. In the same vein, if playing a “do what Hitler wants scenario” the redeploy a PG card should appear when Hitler changes the objective of the campaign.
Stalin Episodes

That's a tricky one and it was given a lot of thought before hand. The end result was to keep the PG's within their respective theatres with the option to shift one out when needed. Going the other way with free range Panzergruppes negates the theatre system that underpins so much of the rest of the game. It was, historically, a major undertaking to permanently reassign a PG from one theatre to another and when it was done in '41 for Operation Typhoon the logistical system in AGC immediately went into spasms and never really recovered. The game lets you, as you've mentioned, do so once you've taken a theatre objective.
-In several games as Soviets, I have had Stalin throw a fit late in the game when the Germans are being crushed. Don’t understand how this can happen when, for example, the turn before 4 panzer divisions were destroyed by the Soviets.

Stalin's paranoia is a gradual build up over time, not generally an instant reaction to the previous turn. Being probability based you can get a low roll which can create an unexpected episode. The idea is to represent mental instability which is mainly derived from the perceived threat from his own officers & politicians rather than from the external, German, one.

Good job taking down 4 Panzer divisions, though. Not easy. Stalin probably shot the guy in charge of doing so.
-Severe weather (frostbite conditions) seems to adversely affect Soviet Activations and most importantly supply, even the 58th army. This does not seem to comport with history and the preparations the Soviets made to operate in such conditions.

The Soviets have a huge advantage in cold weather conditions but when extreme weather hits even they have problems. This ties in with what I've read to date but if you've got an example to the contrary I'll take a look at it.
Towers of Doom
-I have commented on this topic before and after playing another host of games come back to it. The stacking rules and their effect, on in supply defending stacks in particular, do not seem to be working as designed. I find NO incentive as Soviets to NOT pile up huge stacks, that if in supply and attacked even from 4 hexes by the Germans are 99% of the time unbeatable. There are no exponential losses to the Soviet defenders in such combats and it appears as if all the piled up troops in such a hex fight.

That shouldn't be happening. It's more of a core engine issue that is in Vic's domain so it might be best if I leave this one to him.
-It appears to me that too much information is revealed about opposing forces in nearly all circumstances. As Soviets, I shop around looking for German units changing posture, with low AP’s and readiness, etc. and I wonder in a dynamic 4 day turn environment in 1941 just how accurate this kind of intel is, especially for the Soviets. On the other hand, way too little information is displayed (or provided in the intel report) when, as in an ongoing game, Soviet units sneak into Brest-Litovsk (a lonely HQ of all things and an unidentified Soviet unit sits adjacent to AGC HQ in Warsaw. I admit to having missed seeing the changing border of Soviet territory, even so, the notion that a Soviet formation could reach these places without detection seems farfetched (and the HQ in Brest-Litovsk and the other adjacent to Warsaw only appeared with a anti-raider Panzer Division moved adjacent to Brest-Litovsk). See screenshot below. There are a lot of decisions offered related to the rear area security units, perhaps an easy fix that could be considered here would be to actually show some of these units on the map and that they could be moved (as was the case historically) to chase marauding Soviet raiders including very powerful HQ’s (it turns out at is just walked into Brest-Litovsk) sneaking around on their own.

Yep, I agree with this. It's a case of game play versus realism. The Soviets do have a significantly higher Fog of War barrier than the Germans. There were many instances of Soviet units advancing full tilt into unexpected German forces but cases where the opposite occurred were rare (largely due to the superior Luftwaffe recce and signals intel).

The sneaky units in the rear is a bit of an issue but not one with an easy solution. Providing rear area German units that can roam around dealing with these raises a lot of curly problems that I've never managed to come up with satisfactory solution for.
Fuel Shortages
-In my most recent and ongoing game as Germans, all three PG’s are experiencing fuel shortages at the beginning of Turn 3 which has continued into Turn 4. Is this WAD? Hard to believe that this reflects anything historical this early in the campaign and with the PG’s so close to the frontier.

WAD. It happened. Getting fuel to the fast advancing Panzers was a problem right from the start of Barbarossa. Getting enough fuel anywhere was a problem from Smolensk onwards.

On another matter how, after 15 games, do you find the balance of the game?

Cheers,
Cameron
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hello Cameron and thanks for the reply.

Here are some followup comments to yours.

Cameron: The design of the game has an underlying tension between how far you can push you PG's versus being able to keep them supplied in fuel. It's a lot easier to do one than the other. I'm O.K with what you've described above as being within the realms of a feasible historical outcome. The personality tensions, conflicts and resultant shortages of trains and trucks is about right.

Reply: I understand the intent of the logistical system and have no issue with the basic functioning of it. And, no issue with AGS being the problem theatre for the reasons you mention. However, as noted, Wagner seems to have too great an influence on it and I ask you if it was not possible for the Germans to shift trains to that theatre if that (not distance or blown bridges or Wagner delaying unloading) is the limiting factor? Would it be a big deal to add cards that would enable the Germans to do this along with some reconfiguring of what makes Wagner happy or not as suggested?

quote:

Fuel Shortages
-In my most recent and ongoing game as Germans, all three PG’s are experiencing fuel shortages at the beginning of Turn 3 which has continued into Turn 4. Is this WAD? Hard to believe that this reflects anything historical this early in the campaign and with the PG’s so close to the frontier.


Cameron WAD. It happened. Getting fuel to the fast advancing Panzers was a problem right from the start of Barbarossa. Getting enough fuel anywhere was a problem from Smolensk onwards.

Reply. Agree that it was a problem from Smolensk onward but was it a problem on June 26 or June 30 as I am presently experiencing in an ongoing game? Will send you some better screen shots when I make my next PBEM move in that game.

Balance?

My suggestions relate to the matter of balance. As this point, my take is that the edge goes to the Soviets, particularly because of the tower of doom issue but also because of the inability of the German player to make adjustments as suggested that seem reasonable historically (shift rolling stock, get a grumpy AG or logistics commander in line, etc). As is proper, the Germans must make few or no mistakes to prevail in the campaign, Soviets can be sloppy and get away with it and IMO they now can be too sloppy and win.

Very much appreciate your responses on the other topics I raised!

Walt






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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Cameron

1st of two hopefully better screenshots depicting the location of the PG's at the start of the German July 4 Round.
Walt

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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

2nd of 2

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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hello again.

Here are comments from a guy I have played at least 7 of my PBEM games with. Experienced game and retired high ranking officer from the US Army.

Again, they are offered with a goal of making the "command" side of the game more realistic for human to human PBEM play.

Hope you two have not had to let this one go under an economic (and understandable) imperative to work on some new game.

WAD:




I think the game is unbalanced in favor of the Soviets.




The Russian player has little to do in order to win. By simply mega-stacking between the Germans and the three objective cities he/she can deny a German victory. Anything else; like delaying from the frontier toward the cities, or holding Kiev, is just a sideshow compared to the defensive towers ringing the objectives. Moreover, there are almost no bad PP investment choices for the Soviets... only good and better.




Contrast with German play is stark. The Germans have to do EVERYTHING right to win and many of the German PP decisions are "bad and worse." Plus, the dearth of PPs for the Germans means that two of the three "games" (logistical, political, or operational) will suffer to make the other two palatable.




My biggest complaint is the German logistics play. Yes, logistics in BARBAROSSA were an absolute double-dyed bitch... but they weren't "impossible." The game has an exquisitely detailed logistics engine, good! But the downside is that the game affords ZERO logistics flexibility to the player at the strategic level... which is where the player is positioned. For example: although acting as supreme commander in the East, I cannot fundamentally weight my logistics effort, or take actions to mitigate logistic subordinate intransigence. Nor am I able to call up decisions at will that can ameliorate the logistics difficulties of my forces (unless that's the "booster buttons" for HELP)... rather, I am forced to make decisions when available per the game's design; some of which cannot later be "un made." Think... how often do you get the chance to invest in rail switching and signaling infrastructure or adding support to the rail conversion efforts? ONCE!




Not asking for a Nazi logistics magic wand, only a historically accurate and appropriate role for the Supreme Commander in the East. For example: firing one of the two logistics obstructionists. If that took 40 PPs; it's now up to me as the commander if I want to take no real decisions for a couple of turns, just so I can rid myself of a pettifogging butthead. Fine by me. Or, what about being able to reallocate trains and trucks? Yes, it would (and should) take quite a bit of time, but I should be able to push these transportation resources into any theater; so I don't wind up with 7+ loads of fuel in AGN while AGS sits with a teaspoon of fuel for a month!




The way it is now, I have all the headaches of the commander and very little of his power/authority... and what I have can't turn the logistics tide.
Walt
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by pekische »

My BIG agree with Wadortch. Especially with last two paragraphs....
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by morvael »

I guess with manual creation of supply depots, depot priority and HQ supply priority this was (at least partially) addressed in WitW and will be in WitE 2.0, in the sense that it will allow to prioritize certain places and formations.
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by demyansk »

Agree, I need a simplified version of where to move FSB bases and whether it's a good idea or not, I get crushed as the germans even against the computer but this might be a good thing b/c then I will keep playing. next game I play will be without human controlled logistics. Perhaps, we could just cover as a human player one front?

Maybe just human player control center? North? South? Also, no reduction of PP's when Chief of Staff makes decisions
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by aaatoysandmore »

The Russian originally won. They should be hard to defeat and the balance should be in their favor to give it that "historical" feel. The Germans were hard pressed to win that theater of war and I think the game balance is just fine in favor of Russia.
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hi aatoys...

Are you playing the AI or by PBEM?

I agree that the burden of good play should be on the Germans. The point of my suggestions is that without some changes, the balance in the game is too heavily weighted in favor of the Soviets in PBEM play and does not reflect the historical ability of Halder (or his replacement) to make decisions to improve German chances of success.


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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by lancer »

Hi,

Couple of quick replies.

Balance in PBEM games is difficult. We've tweaked this a lot, both ways, over time. I've kept a record of people commenting on PBEM balance and it's near enough to even. As mentioned in another post, there are game options available to tweak it to suit your personal preferences. It's very hard to achieve a balance in PBEM as there are two humans involved. Humans tend to vary somewhat.

Mega Soviet stacks shouldn't be a viable strategy. Vic might chime in on this one. On the other hand there was a massive concentration of available Soviet forces around Moscow and Leningrad in '41.
Not asking for a Nazi logistics magic wand, only a historically accurate and appropriate role for the Supreme Commander in the East. For example: firing one of the two logistics obstructionists. If that took 40 PPs; it's now up to me as the commander if I want to take no real decisions for a couple of turns, just so I can rid myself of a pettifogging butthead. Fine by me. Or, what about being able to reallocate trains and trucks? Yes, it would (and should) take quite a bit of time, but I should be able to push these transportation resources into any theater; so I don't wind up with 7+ loads of fuel in AGN while AGS sits with a teaspoon of fuel for a month!

There are numerous references in Halder's War Diaries that show a similar line of thought. Unfortunately Halder (as depicted in the game) is the Operational Commander, not the Supreme Commander of the Eastern front. He didn't have the ability to fire Gercke or Wagner. Nor did he have the ability to make unilateral decisions regarding the overall logistical system (he's given some latitude here with fuel assignments, for instance) for the entire front. He had to work with what he had and make the best of it. It was an imperfect system in every way.

Stalin has god-like powers whereas Halder is working within an organisation.
Reply. Agree that it was a problem from Smolensk onward but was it a problem on June 26 or June 30 as I am presently experiencing in an ongoing game? Will send you some better screen shots when I make my next PBEM move in that game.

Yep, it happened. Fuel shortages, prior to Smolensk, were ongoing in all three theatres. Here's a few quotes from the in-game help ("Unexpected Fuel Shortages") explaining why (which are derived from primary sources).
German planners were completely taken aback by the difference in expected fuel use and actual. Previous campaigns in the West, replete with highly developed road networks, had led them to grossly underestimate the amount of fuel needed for Operation Barbarossa.

A standard load (a 'quota') of fuel was expected to last for 100 km's (65 miles). In reality only 40-48 km's (25-30 miles) was achieved. Nor did these numbers take into account the worn state of the engines that necessitated significantly higher oil and lubricant use.

Cheers,
Cameron

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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by Khanti »

ORIGINAL: wadortch
(...)
For example: although acting as supreme commander in the East, I cannot fundamentally weight my logistics effort, or take actions to mitigate logistic subordinate intransigence. Nor am I able to call up decisions at will that can ameliorate the logistics difficulties of my forces (unless that's the "booster buttons" for HELP)... rather, I am forced to make decisions when available per the game's design; some of which cannot later be "un made." Think... how often do you get the chance to invest in rail switching and signaling infrastructure or adding support to the rail conversion efforts? ONCE!

I think the same. The problem lies with fact you are offered a decision. You made it and it cannot be undone in the future. Many times I need to choose where to invest my PP and have to take BAD decisions because of lack of PPs. I should be happy to be able to re-did some decisions in the next turns. Something like with airfield or FSB relocation (they stay till indefinitely to decide).
═══
There is no such thing as a historically accurate strategy game. Every game stops being historically accurate from the very first move player do. First unit that moves ahistorically, first battle with non-historical results, mean we ride in unknown.
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by lancer »

Hi Hanti,

The design of the game is intended to put you in a situation where you don't have enough PP to make all decisions yourself. Delegation is a necessary evil.

Certain decisions that you take will generate further decisions allowing you to revisit your original decision, eg. fuel allocations. But a lot of other decisions don't do this for the reason that any changes you have ordered involve a lot of reorganisation and reconfiguring. Undoing those changes without incurring major disruption isn't going to be feasible within the time frame of the game.

The model of Operational Command presented by the game assumes that you aren't going to have enough resources to do everything that you want and, in a lot of cases, once you make a decision you aren't going to have the time or luxury of changing your mind.

Cheers,
Cameron
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Hello Cameron

I defer to your knowledge and depth of research on this but there are some oddities in the command/decision system.

Halder can decide to allocate additional artillery ammunition which requires more trains. I am not following that this commitment would be irretrievable.
He has decisions to make with respect to high level political matters (e.g. more or less oil from Romania) but cannot order realignment of logistical resources vital to the German effort.
I expect you can tell me that my belief the Germans could have moved rolling stock from one theatre to another within the time frame spanned by the game, but it does seem that would have been possible and most importantly, Halder could have influence it if he is exerting influence on the higher political decisions described above.
Have no issue at all with the basic premise that "you are not going to have enough resources to do everything you want but as I pointed out before, something does not seem quite right when, for example, Leningrad is taken, and there is no option to move trains to another theatre.

On another note, Isokron and I are into Round 22 of our game and he is taking me to me to graduate school with respect to what the Germans can do to Soviet Towers of Doom and more. More on that later when the finality and scope of his victory is known.

Best regards!
Walt
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by lancer »

Hi Wadortch,

You're correct that there are a number of inconsistencies within the Decision system. Some of them are a case of game play trumping realism and others are judgement calls on my part. It's a tough balance to achieve.

Being able to swing trains over once a theatre has been taken is a good suggestion and I'll add it to the list.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about your game.

Cheers,
Cameron
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RE: Some Suggestions for the Next Patch

Post by wadortch »

Tis good to read you are thinking about some of these logistics issues.

I will post up some screenshots of the situation in the game with Isokron if he agrees and I don't know why he w
ould not.

Walt
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