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So I have read where some of you folk have claimed to have sunk a bunch of Allied subs in version 2.2. My own ships apparently are incapable of even protecting themselves, much less a convoy. So if you are willing to sell some of your best ASW ships, please contact me. I will pay good money for ships that actually use their depth charges!

Limited Time Offer!

Try e-bay. They are selling a bunch of good Japanese destryoers for a cheap price over there. Shipping and handling costs a furtune though.
I have some destroyers have scored a couple of USN subs, but I won't sell them for no matter what.

Maybe it's time for an Area S-51.

I should have specified in my original post that the ships should be in good condition, system damage of 9 or less. I am not looking for any scratch and dents--Float and Fire damage is unacceptable.


Scully,

Had I the energy, I would do an Area B-51, since level bomber accuracy seems to be a more pressing issue.

Hey, cap_and_gown
Why don't you try to get some good destroyer commanders rather than ships. I'm willing to sell some of mine, very aggresive and competent. I accept check or credit card also.

While my IJN ASW forces mostly suck too, there was one exception worth noting. It was May 42 and I was invading Port MOresby. I have EVERY destroyer available in that hex and my opponent seemed to have every old S-class boat he could find. In one day I sank FIVE of them. I have never seen something like that before or since. It was espicially amazing because the turn started out with the usual miss, miss, miss, searching for sub, etc and I was going to send my opponenet an email complaining about how my destroyers sucked so much. I guess it goes to show that there is a lot of variation in this game.

Still, overall, I don't think they should have cut the IJN's ASW rating in half.

Yamamoto

Just for fun: Scenario 17 - modified all starting Japan DD's to skill 99, modified all TF commanders to all 99's.

Played a H-2-H game, sent the 4 USA subs to the same location as these GOD DD's with GOD Commanders!!!

Here's the sad results:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/03/42

Weather: Overcast

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi

Allied Ships
SS S-42, Shell hits 2, heavy damage


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Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Allied Ships
SS S-38


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Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Asanagi

Allied Ships
SS S-44


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Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Yayoi

Allied Ships
SS S-47


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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/04/42

Weather: Clear

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Kikuzuki

Allied Ships
SS S-38


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Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Mutsuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-47


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Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Uzuki

Allied Ships
SS S-42


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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/05/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Kikuzuki

Allied Ships
SS S-47


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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/06/42

Weather: Thunderstorms

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS S-38


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Allied Ships
SS S-38


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS S-45


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Uzuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
SS S-41


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Allied Ships
SS S-45


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/07/42

Weather: Overcast

Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Oite

Allied Ships
SS S-46


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Uzuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-45


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Woodlark Island at 22,39

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS S-41


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The AAR's speak for themselves!

Please keep in mind I did NOT help out the subs by boosting their skills or installing super commanders, they were just the default out of the box subs. If it was not for the fact that so many torpedos were duds or misses, I would have lost EVERY single DD

8 GODLY DD's vs 4 standard subs ... subs clean house everytime.

Well when there's no destroyers to be had for love or money, put all your bombers, DBs and TBs on ASW and you might get some results. I just lost a sub to one. One or two squadrons won't so, put everything on ASW including carrier squadrons.

Originally posted by Yamamoto
While my IJN ASW forces mostly suck too, there was one exception worth noting. It was May 42 and I was invading Port MOresby. I have EVERY destroyer available in that hex and my opponent seemed to have every old S-class boat he could find. In one day I sank FIVE of them. I have never seen something like that before or since. It was espicially amazing because the turn started out with the usual miss, miss, miss, searching for sub, etc and I was going to send my opponenet an email complaining about how my destroyers sucked so much. I guess it goes to show that there is a lot of variation in this game.

Yamamoto

So, are these DD's for sale or what? Do you have a lay away plan? Can you offer a good interest rate?

Amen, brothers. Mr. Frag, your AAR tells it all. I recently ran about twenty turns head-to-head vs. the AI, relying on all my best IJN ASW assets, and still I got: "escort fails to find sub" or, on occasion, "Torpedo hits DD [insert IJN victim's name here]." Even DD skippers with XP over 70 rarely win. Why bother to escort Transport TFs?

<< Still, overall, I don't think they should have cut the IJN's ASW rating in half. >>

Agreed, big time. Either that, or USN subs should be less effective. This is one of my two biggest complaints about the game (the other being the accuracy of Allied level bombers striking moving TFs in the open ocean). I fervently hope Matrix addresses this in the next patch.

The most effective IJN ASW weapon:

The lowly Barge.

In my PBEM games in the last week I've had these results for subs vs. barge.

2 S-Boats sunk (!)
2 sets of torpedo tubes knocked out of commission (oops, back to Pearl with ye!)
5 subs damaged, 30+ sys and float
2 subs damaged, 10-11 sys and float

I stopped hunting barges with subs after the first few of the above. I now no longer leave my subs in the path of known barge routes, as I am unwilling to risk yet another of my subs to the Barge Menace.

Anyone else seen these crazy results? Or am I just unlucky? To attack a barge, the sub seems to have to surface. Therein lies the danger, that darn 13.2 mm pop gun on the barge just lays waste to my thin-skinned submarines.

It's crazy I tell you.

Oh, and in the same time frame, I've had 2 subs hit by DDs. None sunk. Oh, and 1 hit by air. These results are spread out over 4 games.

Just shows that there truly are just 2 types of ships: Submarines and TARGETS

Originally posted by cap_and_gown
So, are these DD's for sale or what? Do you have a lay away plan? Can you offer a good interest rate?

Sorry, the emperor has designated them National Treasures which makes them priceless.


Actually, I never escort my transport task forces because I don't see the point (as the Japanese). I put DDs in my combat task forces but that is mainly for surface action or for AA protection.

I think subs are fine and I thought IJN ASW was fine before the slashing. Subs are my second favorite type of ship in the game after carriers.

Yamamoto

The Moni class APD's have an ASW of 10, so i thought they would be good sub killers. So i paired them with a few DD's and sent them on their way. Turns out they are just targets.

Anyway, the IJN did have rather bad anti-sub capabilities anyway. Maybe it's more a case of doctrine than equipment.

I do think that S-boats are too effective and need to be toned down a bit.

Posted by Cap_and_Gown

Scully,
Had I the energy, I would do an Area B-51, since level bomber accuracy seems to be a more pressing issue.

Already started on one, unfortunately haven't had the time lately to get any further.

I'm taking 3 months work leave in March so, unless someone else tries it, I'll see you in the hanger next month.

Cap already did an Area 51 with our PBEM.....his S-boats remain the top scorer in our game so far with dozens of hits, a good number of sinkings and one IJN commander (moi) strolling around the ASW divisional offices at Truk swearing like a sailor, swinging a samauri sword in long wavy loops, and generally terrorizing the staff.



I too would like to get my hands on some of those magic ASW jelly beans since my own forces have scored zip against his subs so far (well there was "one" sub i got but it was a fluke.....a CL caught a sub on the surface and torpedoed it!!!)

Originally posted by Veer
The Moni class APD's have an ASW of 10, so i thought they would be good sub killers. So i paired them with a few DD's and sent them on their way. Turns out they are just targets.

Anyway, the IJN did have rather bad anti-sub capabilities anyway. Maybe it's more a case of doctrine than equipment.

I do think that S-boats are too effective and need to be toned down a bit.

They are.

In one of my PBEM games just lost a USN sub to a group of 2 APDs...

This is the third time I have had my US Sub sunk or damaged by APDs

Looking through the editor, only the Moni class are good sub hunters, and there are only 6 to be had. Treasure them, they are the ONLY Japan asset that actually has multiple DC mounts.

One thing to note: Not all Allied DD's are created equal, with some classes having multiple mounts and other classes only having single mounts. Classes Sims, Bristol, Benson, Fletcher are your best sub killers, coupled with Bristol looking to be your absolute best AA DD, followed by the Fletchers. Nice getting both the best ASW and best AA on the same ship. Good engineering on someones part.

1. ALWAYS move in convoys and ALWAYS escort. A sub basically gets one detection shot per separate task force, so reduce the number of task forces it can detect. And if a sub does attack, you ALWAYS want to counter attack it. There is a statistical chance you hit it. Note that sometimes the game lets you use guns - at night for example. In fact, the IJN had ASW shells for daylight ASW operations, and other wierd things that were not always useless.

2. EVADE enemy subarines. When you detect one, route your ships to avoid that place if you can. Most of the time the AI moves their subs, but sometimes it does not. Players often just let a sub sit. So once located, avoid that hex.

3. COVER your critical sea lanes with ASW patrols. Use two levels of patrol - 1000 feet and 100 feet. Use your seaplanes for this. They are not much use for other things and they DO spot subs and even hit them with bombs, DCs and sometimes machine guns. I have had IJN pilots credited with sub kills!!!! When this happens, the rating of the unit goes up, and it is MORE likely to get the next sub. [1000 feet is better than 100, if you have only one air unit available]

4. ATTACK enemy subs with groups of DDs and PC/PG craft. Statistics and the simple model mean you will have as much as a 50% chance of a kill, in my experience. Just patrol in the hex of a spotted sub. Any enemy that does not move when spotted is going to die. If you have air ASW in the same area, it is PROBABLE a sub will not survive even one day.

5. Put NUMBERS of planes on ASW duty. Near carriers not likely to engage the enemy, dedicate ALL bomber groups to ASW (but perhaps only 70% committed to reduce operational losses to levels repair can fix every day). Any sub near your carriers has a very low life expectancy as it will likely be detected.

6. Eliminate or reduce Air ASW in thunderstorms - you won't find em anyway and that reduces operational losses.