Matrix Games Forums

I don't think Ive seen any in the 1939 and 1941 campaigns.

No loss, if you ask me.

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood

No loss, if you ask me.

Well only if your goal is not to create a historical simulation. Ive played WW2 games both PC and board for many years. I don't think Ive ever seen SS units excluded except from areas where they were not involved ie Africa.

The Storm Over Europe scenario in SC WW I Breakthrough didn't have them either. I frankly can't remember if they were in any of the earlier incarnations of Strategic Command, but I doubt it.

Units are generic by function. If you want an SS unit, build a unit and spend a lot of money on the extras, then rename the unit to include the SS designation.

And by the way, except when they were parading at Nuremburg for parteitag, they wore pearl grey uniforms (as opposed to feldgrau). The black counter wargame convention is nothing more than a wargame convention and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

You can rename any unite the way you want to. That is enough. History has its limits if you want to play a game.
SS is integral part of the most darkest of Nazi crimes. No need to glorify them.

I think the real issue is one of design focus.

SS units are not needed as category in a game that describes units in terms of general function. There are too many categories of units as it is for a game on this scale (artillery and anti-tank should probably be unit upgrades rather than actual units). But since I doubt that Bill and Hubert are going to be cutting any any time soon, we probably shouldn't encourage them to make things more cluttered than they already are.

The game already does a good job of side-stepping the need for first and second class units with its system of upgrades. And even with the SS the issue is complicated, because though the units that ended up being designated SS Panzer divisions had top of the line equipment and performed very well, late in the war when the SS was being transformed into a parallel Wehrmacht, some of the units that were raised were full of conscripts and hardly stellar.

Well if they're not included as a design decision with regard to generic units that can be tailored, that's OK I can accept that.

However I don't at all agree with the idea that Waffen SS units are some PC hobgoblin we shouldn't represent. And perhaps I should have clarified I was referring to the Waffen SS from the outset.

Yeah Its a real shame there are no ss.... They played a huge part in the war, and not only terrible things..
I really hope we can see them togheter with soviet guards units in a later update!

They played a huge part in the war? Or was it the fact, that they got the best equipment and better supply?
With SS units (Waffen-SS or black SS) you're reaching a dangerous point where you're in danger to cross over into war crimes like industrial mass murder. There is a grey zone, and I would like to advise to stay out of it as far and best as possible.
German industrial did rise because of slave labour. No one would dare to suggest to introduce Organisation Todt, even though it had a huge impact on the war, too.
I do get it that the Waffen SS units do fascinate some people. I guess I made it clear that this isn't true for myself, even though one of my Grandfathers did serve within such a unit somewhere between 44-45. And yet I would rather have the chance to create elite units right from the start (Peoples General had this option) instead of adding even the slightest smell of Nazi glorification into the game.
Early in the war Waffen-SS men died rather fast because of their fanatism, later in the war they often fought "better" because of the fear of what might happen to them IF the enemy would get them alive (because of their war crimes, for which the SS was renowned and feared for). Often those men were shot on sight once they've surrendered, or they got mutilated first, and than shot.
I know that you guys want the game to be at its best, with no other reason than that. So please don't get me wrong, if I'm speaking out against SS units: I really don't want to judge you. All I'm trying to do is to state that I would be feeling pretty uncomfortable with SS units within the game.

I along with a couple others brought this up within the first couple of weeks of the beta. I believe the prevailing feeling among the design team is that SS units will not be in the game, just like previous SC games. If I remember correctly, I think it was Bill who suggested using the editor to add them to your own game if you wish to have them for a more personalized feel.

SS units should be held from the purchase version. In so far I agree to Xwormwood. However, in my new "Battlefield Europe" mod I will insert them once more (together with the Red Army Guards) as optional event units.

The only way you get SS units in this game is if you name them. Mr. Cater decided to make the game the focus and steers clear of any political issues, for which I applaud him. So, if you want an elite unit to be the 1st SS LAH, name it as such. I have done that, if I have units that are elite and in a proper historical position that could make it an SS unit.

And again I can accept renaming units, but political issues, that's absurd and being too thin-skinned. The SS committed more than their share of war crimes, no one would argue that. But lets take a detached look at this for a moment. How would people feel about a Normandy game that lacked airborne troops? Or Rangers? Stalin had more people murdered than Hitler, so how about Guards units? Do you throw them out too? This just smells too much like revisionist history to me.
If you're too worried about promoting National Socialism/Fascism/Hitler then you probably shouldn't be playing a WW2 game.

Why is SS so important? Because of their fancy uniforms and the runic SS letters? Why are they so important that you think the game would be incomplete without them?
Where do you personally draw the line about what belongs into a game about WW2, and what not?
Would you like to play a game where you could lead IS units into battle, even if they were the ones which cut of the heads of their victoms?
Would you think a game where you could pilot a air plane into the twin towers would be a great 2001 flight simulator?
I do understand your point, of course, you want a complete game, not a light version of history. But I honestly think that you're wrong. Not because of ill intend, but because of a too narrow way to weigh in all arguments.
My biggest argument is that there are still people alive who barely survived the SS and lost parts if not all of their family because of them. Should they read in the news about a generation commanding these SS units "for fun"?
I don't know where you live, and what you personally have experienced in regard of WW2 witnesses. And I wouldn't dare to say that I do know more than you, just because i live in Germany.
All I ask of you is to think about everything, and to try to understand why it might be a good idea to let SS units out of a game where a player tries to win WW2 with these units. If not for ever, than at least for the next 20 - 30 years.
No hard fealings, ok?

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

And again I can accept renaming units, but political issues, that's absurd and being too thin-skinned. The SS committed more than their share of war crimes, no one would argue that. But lets take a detached look at this for a moment. How would people feel about a Normandy game that lacked airborne troops? Or Rangers? Stalin had more people murdered than Hitler, so how about Guards units? Do you throw them out too? This just smells too much like revisionist history to me.
If you're too worried about promoting National Socialism/Fascism/Hitler then you probably shouldn't be playing a WW2 game.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

ORIGINAL: Xwormwood
No hard fealings, ok?

Ofcourse not!
And I see your points. A game titled: "Taliban Commander" may be interesting but probably wouldn't sell well, so it wouldn't even be made.

Bumping due to conversation in the public thread regarding the lack of SS units.

Ah I see this did come up during Beta.

To me it's a non-issue. I don't even look at the names. But I can imagine the grogs would. The problem is not with the names imho. That's an easy change. But to do it right you'd have to make counters and 3d units also.

My 2 cents: SS (or any 'elite', 'political', or 'private army') troops were formed at the expense of needed resources. Their combat capacity is (slightly) greater but the extra administration, supply, equipment, training, and other costs make their creation of questionable utility. On a small scale, they can (sometimes) make a difference. In general, they are not cost effective.

Most of us like bigger units, the concept doesn't scale well. On a strategic scale, it is inadvisable. The Axis needs to maximize it's economy.

With Germany, maintainance of 'special forces' was made more pronounced by the fragmented, feudal (far too many cooks) nature of the Nazi government. Germany did not benefit from having Waffen-SS (or Luftwaffe ground troops). More efficient use of manpower and material would have been wiser. Fortunately for all concerned, Hitler encouraged overlapping jurisdictions.

The game allows for the creation of overstrength units; renaming them (and optional color/icon changes) should provide the desired chrome without adding ideological baggage to a great game.