Matrix Games Forums

Hello again Sid and everyone [:)]

Well, 4 february 1942, I am loving the mod, especially the logistics: the main reason to use your mod IMHO.

So far so good.

Anyway, er, how do I supply Kodiak? [:D] Ocean is frozen therefore ships cannot get there. I thought it would work like the Lake Ladoga in the Great Patriotic War (when frozen, supplies got to besieged Leningrad) ie an improvised and dangerous land route. But supplies are not getting through (I used the supplies required thing to no avail). I stopped all constructions in the hex but the base will only produce 270 supplies per month (4 LI + 1 free supply per day): 9*30 that is.

Am I supposed to use the transport planes in the area to deliver supplies (and accept heavy OP losses in theory: blizzard, cold zone)? Is that the only option?

Thanks in advance

supply in advance? don't put more than it could feed? [8D]

ORIGINAL: szmike

supply in advance? don't put more than it could feed? [8D]

Good try, Watson

Problem is, game starts the 8 december (for the allies), and er, the ocean is *already* frozen. 4 february is a mere two months later [:)]

then it's on developer not to put more than it could feed or supply via transports/bombers, but I think it should be enough for what starts the game there

ORIGINAL: szmike

then it's on developer not to put more than it could feed or supply via transports/bombers, but I think it should be enough for what starts the game there

Maybe you're correct and there were enough supplies until spring, as long as

a) zero construction
b) everyone rests like the bears
c) no air operations

As per the screenshot, you can see air units in Kodiak (doing naval search in fact), and that swallows supplies. I was also building. I'm innocent though, I thought this would be Lake Ladoga v.2.01

Anyway, if you're correct I'd like an official confirmation. Others might make the same mistake.

Might be one of the things to tweak with the editor. Surely the community would have stock on hand to eat before December 7th...Fish enough to eat, certainly?
Speaking of ice...I wonder how "ice breakers" might fit into the mod?

I also am a logistics fan, and have always had issues with the minimal amount of supply carried by the planes...in every single scenario of the game from vanilla WITP on.

According to my reference material, all those transport planes in game are "shorted", and should certainly be given more "delivery credits" than the in game numbers reflect.
Having 8 and 9 squadrons delivering to one base and never budging the target cities supply needs is not rewarding for the player IMHO.

ORIGINAL: m10bob
According to my reference material, all those transport planes in game are "shorted", and should certainly be given more "delivery credits" than the in game numbers reflect.
Having 8 and 9 squadrons delivering to one base and never budging the target cities supply needs is not rewarding for the player IMHO.

To be honest I never bothered to "investigate" this side of the game.

The airlift to supply surrounded 6 Armee at Stalingrad comes to mind obviously. Unlike supplying China (very vague concept: her many armies?) via the Hump here we have very well defined frontiers: time, number of men to be supplied and their very concrete needs.

Here's an interesting analysis [:)]

OOPS - I wrote assuming he meant Barrow. See below for Kodiak comments and notes.

Thank you for your comments. You are correct on several counts. Logistics is a key element in RHS. The design intent
was to give players a need for all those transport ships and aircraft. Another intent was to simulate historical
problems - logistical in particular. One must ALWAYS bear in mind the limits of what a place can support - or what supply
can get there can support?

The entire US (and Canadian) civil air fleet was mobilized MAINLY to support development of the Canadian NW
and Alaska, early in 1942. You get ALL these aircraft and air units and their base forces. They should not in
general be used outside of North America - and many ground elements and HQ are static or built into static units
for that reason. Obvously, UNTIL you get them, you cannot use them (go figure). They do not start in the game
in December, 1941.

Barrow is a port! So you CAN send ships! But - uh - NOT in Winter - when the ice is frozen? Make sense? In fact,
the only time the Arctic Ocean is generally navigable is in the short, two month long, Fall season. At that time
one can sail deep into the heartland of Siberia or Canada. This is the MAIN way the Allies get major amounts of supply
in. Or, indeed, are able to export most of the few resources (and a little oil) produced in it. In the Winter -
that includes when the game begins - one does have some unusual features - ice roads and ice trails - which mitigate
just a little the logistics problems. In Monsoon, the two major river systems (and one minor one) which open into
the Bering Sea become navigable. In Fall - all the major rivers that empty into the Artic Ocean become connected
to 'the world ocean.' Some rivers are useful in Monsoon but NOT connected to the ocean - they are used locally.
This is the case in both Siberia and North America. These developments are one reason there are RHS players in
Siberia! RHS has systematically developed WITP and then AE to include a fuller Soviet order of battle. As well,
the SOP in RHS is to play with active Russians - to permit construction, deployment, recon, search etc (with care).
[None even numbered scenarios permit passive Russian play - and also simplify logistics for faster play].

Barrow was only used by the US Army as a radar site - to detect a Japanese invasion headed for the MacKenzie River -
to penetrate deep into North America. I do not recommend sending troops there until it is summer, 1942. The enemy cannot
get there until Fall.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Hello again Sid and everyone [:)]

Well, 4 february 1942, I am loving the mod, especially the logistics: the main reason to use your mod IMHO.

So far so good.

Anyway, er, how do I supply Kodiak? [:D] Ocean is frozen therefore ships cannot get there. I thought it would work like the Lake Ladoga in the Great Patriotic War (when frozen, supplies got to besieged Leningrad) ie an improvised and dangerous land route. But supplies are not getting through (I used the supplies required thing to no avail). I stopped all constructions in the hex but the base will only produce 270 supplies per month (4 LI + 1 free supply per day): 9*30 that is.

Am I supposed to use the transport planes in the area to deliver supplies (and accept heavy OP losses in theory: blizzard, cold zone)? Is that the only option?

Thanks in advance

You have until September 1 before the enemy can invade anywhere important
by sea. Barrow is more or less the Allied base to conduct searches from
to protect Arctic Canada. Nothing else is worth worrying about in that
direction.

There are other bases open to navigation sooner. The most important of these
include Nome, Bethel, Ul Kel and Anadyr. There also are OTHER bases inland.
The most important of these is probably Fairbanks - reachable by rail year
around and already a developed air base when the game begins.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: szmike

supply in advance? don't put more than it could feed? [8D]

Good try, Watson

Problem is, game starts the 8 december (for the allies), and er, the ocean is *already* frozen. 4 february is a mere two months later [:)]

The developers (Mifune and ElCidAgain) put in HISTORICAL units WITHOUT REGARD for feeding them.
You get what there was. We diligently researched the OB to that end. You have to make do
in whatever way you can - fly in supply? fly out air units to operate somewhere else? Or wait
for Spring - what almost everyone then and now does IRL.

ORIGINAL: szmike

then it's on developer not to put more than it could feed or supply via transports/bombers, but I think it should be enough for what starts the game there

My bad. Kodiak is different from Barrow. It is also the main NAVY base in Alaska. The Army/Air Force
use Anchorage (Elmendorf Field, Fort Richardson). Note, however, even they have very little local supply.
Alaska is UNDEVELOPED in 1941!

Kodiak is frozen in Winter. So no ships go there. No roads go there either. Air operations are also
limited - flying boats will NOT fly in AE (even if amphibious - which may be an error in code). So the
WINTER naval operating base is Dutch (Dutch Harbor is always called "Dutch" in Alaska, by civilians and
military alike). That is why it has the "heavy" ships - such as they are. [One of only two "third class
cruisers" built for USN, USS Charleston, rated as a gunboat, and a WWI era Omaha CL, USS Memphis]. The
ONLY way to get supplies to Kodiak until Spring thaws the ice is by aircraft. I recommend you do not
bother - it is inefficient. Air ops were - and should be - limited. If you MUST fly - because of enemy
activity - THEN fly from Elmendorf or, with flying boats, from Dutch.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The developers (Mifune and ElCidAgain) put in HISTORICAL units WITHOUT REGARD for feeding them.
You get what there was. We diligently researched the OB to that end. You have to make do
in whatever way you can - fly in supply? fly out air units to operate somewhere else? Or wait
for Spring - what almost everyone then and now does IRL.

ORIGINAL: szmike

then it's on developer not to put more than it could feed or supply via transports/bombers, but I think it should be enough for what starts the game there

so you mean US planners didn't think about supplying those units through winter, right? [&:]

Operation "Ant-Grasshopper"?

"It never snows in January..."

ORIGINAL: szmike

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The developers (Mifune and ElCidAgain) put in HISTORICAL units WITHOUT REGARD for feeding them.
You get what there was. We diligently researched the OB to that end. You have to make do
in whatever way you can - fly in supply? fly out air units to operate somewhere else? Or wait
for Spring - what almost everyone then and now does IRL.

ORIGINAL: szmike

then it's on developer not to put more than it could feed or supply via transports/bombers, but I think it should be enough for what starts the game there

so you mean US planners didn't think about supplying those units through winter, right? [&:]

Yep. It is difficult to describe conditions in 1941. For a good sense of it, I suggest The Thousand Mile War.
The Army and Navy were separate commands (a mistake that had dire repercussions in combat). The commanders barely
communicated (like Admiral King and General MacArthur - who lived in the same building but could NEVER eat together
because each regarded himself as 'senior' and must sit at the head of the table!). The tiny number of long range
aircraft sent to Kodiak had barely arrived, and by the time they came, there was NO WAY to send a ship with supplies.
One might fly them in, however. Military airlift was essentially invented by Brig Gen Simon Bolivar Buckner,
and his methods were dusted off post war for the Berlin Airlift. But then again, supporting a Navy base was not his
top priority. He developed dozens of airfields - and inherited some from the pre war plan to build a series of
airfields across Canada, Alaska and Siberia to send planes to the USSR. Most had no road or rail access in practical
terms - so come Spring 1942, most US airliners were militarized - civil flights were ended and their routes
changed to service military needs - particularly in this theater. I give you every airliner, every airline
base force, but WHEN they were made available. You are the commander - you get to manage what the real commander
got when he got it.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Hello again Sid and everyone [:)]

Well, 4 february 1942, I am loving the mod, especially the logistics: the main reason to use your mod IMHO.

So far so good.

Anyway, er, how do I supply Kodiak? [:D] Ocean is frozen therefore ships cannot get there. I thought it would work like the Lake Ladoga in the Great Patriotic War (when frozen, supplies got to besieged Leningrad) ie an improvised and dangerous land route. But supplies are not getting through (I used the supplies required thing to no avail). I stopped all constructions in the hex but the base will only produce 270 supplies per month (4 LI + 1 free supply per day): 9*30 that is.

Am I supposed to use the transport planes in the area to deliver supplies (and accept heavy OP losses in theory: blizzard, cold zone)? Is that the only option?

Thanks in advance

Do you have some Bolos in Anchorage? They can fly supplies to Kodiak.

ORIGINAL: Yaab
Do you have some Bolos in Anchorage? They can fly supplies to Kodiak.

Yes. Besides planes are not the problem. As Sid just said you have tons of transport planes in RHS. I was using the Alaskan Department three transport squadrons to supply Kodiak and last turn I just brought two more squadrons from Seattle. And in fact I can bring much more. When Sid says every single transport unit is on the game, he means it [8D]

This fixed the small (in the end) problem. Supplies are finally increasing [:)]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Might be one of the things to tweak with the editor. Surely the community would have stock on hand to eat before December 7th...Fish enough to eat, certainly?
Speaking of ice...I wonder how "ice breakers" might fit into the mod?

Maybe it makes sense. Peace time vs war time requirements. After all civilians are out of the picture (except industry, resources). Supplies are beans, bullets and black oil. In RHS, it is true that they include items needed for the "civilians" too (industry, etc).

Look at the West Coast. Tons of transport squadrons (all of them in fact on this screenshot):