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On map new units placement
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:25 pm
by bo
Just curious, I noticed that new unit placments of Germany do not have to be placed in their home country like previous games. Personally I think they should be placed in the country of origin first.
Bo
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:52 pm
by Capitaine
In my games, as Axis, Germany must place new units in Germany. Not sure what you're seeing.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:29 am
by xwormwood
Subs can be placed in St. Nazaire. Axis Minors in their home country.
Everything else has to be placed in "Great Germany".
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:04 pm
by BillRunacre
Hi bo
Please can you let me know which campaign you've noticed this in, as apart from at St Nazaire if the base is enhanced then it shouldn't be possible.
Thanks
Bill
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:30 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
Hi bo
Please can you let me know which campaign you've noticed this in, as apart from at St Nazaire if the base is enhanced then it shouldn't be possible.
Thanks
Bill
Hi Bill, no big deal but it is August in the 1939 campaign, France has just surrendered and Von Leeb came up for deployment and I was able to place him in Warsaw and other hexes in Poland, now maybe that is all right but I thought all units had to be placed in Germany within their original borders.
This has happened before also, just was not paying much attention to it.
Bo
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:42 pm
by elmo3
I've placed new German units almost right up to the border with the Soviet Union.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:21 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: elmo3
I've placed new German units almost right up to the border with the Soviet Union.
Yeah elmo, I just tested it again, I can put all my new units past Warsaw to the Russian border if I desire to.
Bo
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:41 pm
by Numdydar
Poland is considered to be part of German since it was their 'homeland' back in WWI. It is considered 'Greater Germany'
The port in France is an event that the Axis can accept or not.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:27 am
by xwormwood
Germany annexed large parts of Europe. These parts are no longer independent countries, but part of "Greater Germany".
But you do have a point - what is Germany - is it Germany in the borders of 1914, 1933, 1936, 1938, 1939, 1941 ...
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Poland is considered to be part of German since it was their 'homeland' back in WWI. It is considered 'Greater Germany'
Warsaw wasn't part of Germany before WW1, this part of the Map was under Russian control.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:26 am
by Hartmann
ORIGINAL: Xwormwood
Germany annexed large parts of Europe. These parts are no longer independent countries, but part of "Greater Germany".
But you do have a point - what is Germany - is it Germany in the borders of 1914, 1933, 1936, 1938, 1939, 1941 ...
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Poland is considered to be part of German since it was their 'homeland' back in WWI. It is considered 'Greater Germany'
Warsaw wasn't part of Germany before WW1, this part of the Map was under Russian control.
As an abstraction, the game treats the General Gouvernment as part of Germany after the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty comes into effect. In reality, regarding its administration, it was something *between* an annexed territory and an occupied zone.
There's a big difference between maps showing frontlines and maps showing administration and borders. E.g. here's one of Germany in 1944:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sd3gEjjtNNg/T ... h_1944.png
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:16 am
by xwormwood
Warsaw was part of the so-called
Generalgouvernemt / General Governement.
Question would be if this region should be considered as "Germany" (for game purpose only, of course), or not.
One could argue in either way, I guess. The longer I think about it, the more I feel like the General Governement should be a place where new German units should be allowed to be placed, as this region was never part of Germany before, and the question arises, how new units should have been mustered here while only some new german settlers arrived in the years between 1939-1944.
The former German borders from 1914 would be the best answer on the question of "where should the Axis player be allowed to place new german units".
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:09 pm
by bo
When you knowledgeable posters get going, whew, time for me to step aside [:(] actually this should be quite simple for the programmers or rule makers.
"I cannot" and should not be allowed to place a newly consructed unit in occupied France, it must be placed in Germany first which makes perfect sense, nor should any unit be placed outside of Germanys original borders, like placing newly constructed units next to Russian controlled lands, I believe it is a glitch unless Hubert or Bill can confirm otherwise.
Very simple to me, they [units] must be placed in Germanys original borders, period.
Bo
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:01 pm
by BillRunacre
Hi bo
Poland is annexed by Germany and/or the USSR when it falls, and as a result the territory that was Polish now follows the rules regarding deployment that Germany and the USSR follow for the respective parts of the country.
It would need to continue to have a separate existence after its fall to prevent German units deploying there, or for something like the General Government to be formed. That would however have to have a game status as an Axis Minor Ally, and I don't think that would be right.
This has always been the case since Strategic Command began and while that isn't necessarily an argument for keeping it that way, to the best of my knowledge it doesn't seem to have come up before nor caused any significant issues.
Perhaps think of it as recruits being trained in the newly annexed territory. Whether or not that happened I don't know, but it doesn't seem far fetched, particularly as when playing with the Build Delay the units are effectively raised some months before you are able to deploy them.
I hope that helps.
Bill
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:16 pm
by bo
ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
Hi bo
Poland is annexed by Germany and/or the USSR when it falls, and as a result the territory that was Polish now follows the rules regarding deployment that Germany and the USSR follow for the respective parts of the country.
It would need to continue to have a separate existence after its fall to prevent German units deploying there, or for something like the General Government to be formed. That would however have to have a game status as an Axis Minor Ally, and I don't think that would be right.
This has always been the case since Strategic Command began and while that isn't necessarily an argument for keeping it that way, to the best of my knowledge it doesn't seem to have come up before nor caused any significant issues.
Perhaps think of it as recruits being trained in the newly annexed territory. Whether or not that happened I don't know, but it doesn't seem far fetched, particularly as when playing with the Build Delay the units are effectively raised some months before you are able to deploy them.
I hope that helps.
Bill
Your game your rules NP, I will now remain neutral on your feelings of placements. Thank you for getting back to me.
Bo
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:08 am
by Patrat
If you want to get really technical about it you would limit German new unit deployment to areas where they had a Wehrkreis in the corresponding year.
I would have to look it up to see if they ever had one near the General Government, but I sort of doubt it.
I looked it up. I was wrong. There was a Wehrkreis in the General Goverment. The General Goverment Wehrkries was headquartered in Cracow. There was also one in Bohemia.
"One of the most important and fundamental aspects of WWII German organization was the concept of the Wehrkries, or Corps Area. The concept of the Wehrkries was designed to divide Germany into a number of military regions that would be responsible for the administration, mobilization and general structure of the Korps and Divisionen of the German Heer. Germany was divided into a total of 23 Wehrkries, with an original 19 existing prior to the Invasion of Poland in September of 1939. After the Polish Campaign, another four Wehrkries were added. Of the Original 19 Wehrkries, 15 were actually in Germany proper, and the remaining four were non-territorial, and did not have a specific region they controlled, although they did have Headquarters located in a specific German city. The four Wehrkries added after the Campaign in Poland were located in former Polish territory.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:46 am
by Hartmann
ORIGINAL: Patrat
If you want to get really technical about it you would limit German new unit deployment to areas where they had a Wehrkreis in the corresponding year.
I would have to look it up to see if they ever had one near the General Government, but I sort of doubt it.
I looked it up. I was wrong. There was a Wehrkreis in the General Goverment. The General Goverment Wehrkries was headquartered in Cracow. There was also one in Bohemia.
"One of the most important and fundamental aspects of WWII German organization was the concept of the Wehrkries, or Corps Area. The concept of the Wehrkries was designed to divide Germany into a number of military regions that would be responsible for the administration, mobilization and general structure of the Korps and Divisionen of the German Heer. Germany was divided into a total of 23 Wehrkries, with an original 19 existing prior to the Invasion of Poland in September of 1939. After the Polish Campaign, another four Wehrkries were added. Of the Original 19 Wehrkries, 15 were actually in Germany proper, and the remaining four were non-territorial, and did not have a specific region they controlled, although they did have Headquarters located in a specific German city. The four Wehrkries added after the Campaign in Poland were located in former Polish territory.
Yesterday I was tempted to post something along this line, but decided not to because all this is just too obviously below the abstraction level of the game. Then Bill explained it.
Btw where a unit is "formed" and where the conscripts come from is also not the same, so e.g. when we place a new unit in France we can view this as all being included in the "production" delay phase (which quite obviously does not just mean the equipment being produced in factories).
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:01 am
by Patrat
Well the fact that the Germans did have a Wehrkries in both the General Government and Bohemia pretty much supports the designers decision to allow unit placement anywhere in Greater Germany.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:26 pm
by xwormwood
Even though the General Government got its own Wehrkr
eis, it doesn't change the fact that only new german settlers where there to recruit (which have moved into the region after the Fall of Poland).
Anyway, no need to argue here.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:50 pm
by Goodmongo
Months go by before a unit is actually able to be placed on the map. I think the OP is confusing this placement with the building of the unit itself. The extended map area represents the controlled marshaling yards and the final assembly point.
That in-production time period can easily represent all of this other stuff. After all if we want to get really picky then only parts of Germany should be available for initial placement and those parts should differ for planes, panzer or infantry units. Changing it in my opinion is an abstract punishment that really offers nothing to game play.
RE: On map new units placement
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:11 pm
by robertm73
I feel like the units should be able to placed in my conquered area as long as it is not on the front lines. IE I should be able to spawn a garrison in Paris once France falls. I would be fine if this added a delay of one round to the game. I also find it weird the Africa corp spawns in North Africa along with some Italian units yet i don't have the option to do that! Same with the British when the armored corp appears in Egypt.
Alternative if I dont accept Vichy France and complete conquer France, I should be able to free France and create it as a minor axis power. Same with other conquered countries. Why cannot I build Norway units loyal to the fascist government?
