Matrix Games Forums

So Mr Matrix......could we please have a new section for all the posts to do with Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean???????:)

Hmmm...interesting.


Raverdave..is the map hardcoded?

I would like very much to see a "Mediterrean Mod", but I read somewhere that the map is hardcoded....
So we have to wait an official expansion by 2by3...

No expansion packs etc before WiTP! All who say the contrary should be lined up nicly behind a barn and shot.

Originally posted by Pkunzipper
I would like very much to see a "Mediterrean Mod", but I read somewhere that the map is hardcoded....
So we have to wait an official expansion by 2by3...

The map couldn't have beem TOO hardcoded because we could edit it before the 2.10 patch. Remember someone found out how to and posted it to the forum? The GRAPHICS would have to be changed by drawing a new bmp file but the important part, each hex's data, could be directly modified by the user. They took that feature out in the 2.10 patch. You could set max base size for air and naval, set terain type and set which hex-sides were passible.

Yamamoto

Not sure I see UV as the right engine for "Med" operations. Scale is far too small for 24 hour turns, and shifting the turn time to a lower setting (like 6 hours) would cause too many other radical changes to need to be done.

Couple to that the happenings in the Med were directly related to the rest of the war in Europe. Not sure you can isolate just one little part like that. What would happen if you happened to luck out and sink Rommel's army on it's way to secure North Africa? That entire campaign would not have happened, having huge issues elsewhere.

It is sort of like looking at Battle of Britain, if you win it as the Germans, the implications are somewhat staggering in nature. Operation Sea Lion would have occured, the USA would no longer have had a base to stage from, Germany would have had those additional divisions to deal with Russia properly instead of getting bogged down, etc. Germany may have even settled with Russia at that point in time, resulting in a one front war.

It's a really big "what if?" when you pick a location where "stuff" happened and try and model it in a game. UV has a nice finite area of operation, that did not radically change due to 1 specific event. Few other areas during the war were that static in nature.

You have put down some interesting thoughts there Mr.Frag (gawd it's tempting to "drop" the "r";) ).

But surely the same could be said for the Battle for the Coral sea? Is that not why we play these wargames?

As for the size of the Med it self, well thats easy, just resize the hexs to 15 miles rather than 30. But I think that you would find that 30 mile hexs is just fine for a 24 hour impulse. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

But surely the same could be said for the Battle for the Coral sea?

Not really, the whole pacific war can be nicely broken off into one lump sum and parcelled out as they have done in UV, because it happened over a lengthy period of time and had fairly defined resources committed to it.

The happenings in the Med are rather short in nature unless one includes a much bigger troop level element to the game, it really wasn't a major naval conflict. Supplies didn't have to flow from transports really. Battles happened, but it was really just a training ground for folks getting ready for the main event.

Originally posted by Mr.Frag

Supplies didn't have to flow from transports really.

Where did they come from then? The Italians had to move supply from North to South to keep their army ready to fight. The British had to move their supplies from West to East to keep their army ready to fight. I think it would be a great opportunity for naval combat. I think the best scenarios would be before the Germans got involved heavily and before the Americans got involved at all. The British and the Italians were pretty well matched in their naval forces.

Yamamoto

From a geographic map scope, the Mediterranean is not a bad match. Everything from the Suez to Gibraltar and the Adriatic to Tunisia would fit in a map of the same size as the UV map. I suspect that the UV land-battle routine would not adequately recreate the multi-divisional battles in North Africa. It might be fun at the start of the war though.


BTW the map matrix (terrain type, hex sides etc..not the graphical .bmp file) must be hardcoded.

A hypothetical campaign could be created by assuming the Italians had plenty of fuel to start, and got more from the Germans/EU. You could also have a "Vichy French" option where the French fleet and ports go over to the Axis. Add in an accelerating USN presence, and you could have a valid PBEM campaign either way. Virtually unlimited Allied fuel from the oil fields, but they have to ship in supplies through the Strait via ship, and no major Fleet repair bases. Lose the oil fields and they'd have to ship in fuel as well. Axis would have shorter supply lines, repair bases, but limited fuel unless they took the oil fields.

Make it Med, Red Sea, and North/West Africa and you could have an interesting campaign.

Great...when its ready I'll be the Ethiopians!!

Originally posted by Yamamoto
Where did they come from then? The Italians had to move supply from North to South to keep their army ready to fight. The British had to move their supplies from West to East to keep their army ready to fight. I think it would be a great opportunity for naval combat. I think the best scenarios would be before the Germans got involved heavily and before the Americans got involved at all. The British and the Italians were pretty well matched in their naval forces.

Yamamoto

Supplies for the most part could be shipped overland by rail or truck. Yes, US convoys had to come across the Atlantic to unload, but that is on the other side of the "Rock". Germany sent supplied south, not north by ship around spain to get there. Italy? Well, lets just say they were out of the war before it started If you want to cap the timeframe to pre-germany involvement, it comes down to one fleet battle between Italy and England assuming the Italian ships even live long enough to set to sea (airpower). If you revamp the land portion of UV and revamp the sub portion of UV, it might be decent, but as it sits now, the game would be over in less then a week I would think.

Remember, we have history on our side, we tend to play more aggressively then it really was, and as a result, our results tend to be extremely time compressed.

It is tough to have vested interests in the political concequences of a defeat when *we* toss troops into harms way. To us, they are simply a paper counter on the table. How would you like it if in UV, you loose a major battle and suddenly find that ships are being withdraw to Pearl on you because High Command just got told "don't risk anymore major ships" by a sway in public opinion.

War is fought by soldiers but the strings are pulled by politics. We don't have to deal with the politics in our games (yet). Close Combat was pretty good in exposing you to this element, where your troops would rebel against your orders. This kind of element would need to be factored into a Med game (as various nations involved swayed as to who and what they were fighting for). UV is much cleaner in this regard. Neither side would have backed off an inch, and it really was a pure fight to the death, no holds barred.

I continue to believe that the Mediterranean theater in WWII and the UV game system are a perfect match. A number of things would have to be different, to be sure, but that would be so no matter what milieu you try to place a previously-developed game engine in.

The focus would be, as it is in UV, on naval and air warfare (and I completely disagree that the Mediterranean campaign wasn't a major naval conflict). The surrounding war would have to be abstracted to a degree and reflect developments in other theaters, but this is not difficult. Reinforcements and replacements would be affected, and force withdrawals to meet impending disaster elsewhere would be necessary (Force H being reassigned to duty in the Atlantic to take part in the Bismarck chase, for example).

I believe that most of the ground war could be effectively represented in UV/WITP terms. Rommel and Eighth Army slugging it out while the naval and air forces on both sides struggle to maintain supply links and defend/invade Malta.

Think of how much fun it would be to plan the Allied North Africa and Sicily campaigns - and undertake the invasion of Italy.

I believe that this poses a pretty little design problem. I hope that Matrix/2by3 undertake it.

And besides, if you don't give me this game, I'm gonna sit here and hold my breath until I turn blue.

And besides, if you don't give me this game, I'm gonna sit here and hold my breath until I turn blue.

Ok, I give!

Can't have you turning blue

This Med idea has been tossed around for months. It's got definite potential, and deserves discussion.

What I have not seen anyone touch on is using this game system - with appropriate modifications - to model the Battle of the Atlantic. This could be a comprehensive representation of the conflict: subs, capital ships, commerce raiders, aircraft, and of course transports. The wolfpack/convoy aspect alone would be a game unto itself.

Allies would get points for delivering cargoes to the UK and the Soviet Union, as well as trashing Axis planes and naval vessels. These cargoes could be differentiated into troops, foodstuffs, ammo, soft goods, various military hardware, etc all with their own victory values. Conversely, Germans would accrue points for sinking these same cargoes and wrecking the Allied equipment transporting and defending them.

Production could also be portrayed, with the Germans for example choosing to crank out anti-shipping aircraft, advanced-type uboats, or additional surface forces according to their strategic priorities and industrial base. The Allies for their part, would have similar options.

Naturally the map for this would have to be enormous, ideally covering everything from the North Cape to southern Africa, and the Caribbean to the Indian Ocean, where even IJN subs could come into the mix.

Just an idea, as if Matrix's plate isn't heaped high enough already.

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Ok, I give!

Can't have you turning blue

I don't LOOK bluish.

Originally posted by Blitzer
What I have not seen anyone touch on is using this game system - with appropriate modifications - to model the Battle of the Atlantic.

That’s because it would be boring. All the Germans had to speak of was a bunch of subs. The few surface ships that got loose to do a little reading were quickly retired… except for the ones that never made it back.

I can’t imagine any player having fun with OLNY subs as a viable force, even though subs are my second favorite type of ship. Let’s face it: the German Navy just wasn’t ready for the Second World War. England still ruled the waves. Now maybe an optional scenario where the Germans capture Gibraltar and let the Italian navy out to play might be interesting but, by their selves, the German navy wouldn’t be any fun to play.

Yamamoto

In Uncommon Valour, scenario 17 is not historical.

Scenario 16 is historical but it starts after Coral Sea. And therefore the players cannot re-create Coral Sea.

Both these points grate on me.

There are other scenarios that are historical, but the Allies force is so overwhelming, the Japanese player has no hope. Or to rephrase it, the Japanese starting score it way too low.

Now Juliet7bravo has mentioned a hypothetical scenario and Raverdave is sure to request a hypothetical with a German carrier in the Med.

A game set in the Med must be historical or else there is no point. It needs to start with the Italian push towards Egypt and it needs to end with the fall of Rome.

And remember the Vichty French fought the Aussies in Syria.

And we had battles in Greece and Crete.

Which means ground combat will play a much bigger part in the game than it does in UV.

But why stick with the Med alone? To quote myself:

I know there has been talk that UV-3 might be set in the Med.

But it seems to me that the Med is too small. In would love to see a game made with the UV engine that covers a much larger area.

The area that I have in mind would be the same area covered by the map board in Avalon Hill’s Third Reich.

But I would extend the map further into the Atlantic to allow the U Boats to operate there.

Supply needs to be re-done otherwise my panzers in Russia would stall too easily.

I have this vision of a game where the best features of 3R, are combined with the best features of UV.

Tell you what, Joe. Let's have 'em do UV in the Med, then use that as the foundation on which WITP in Europe can be built.

I suggest this only to serve my selfish desire for a UV in the Med game and in hope that the UV/WITP engine will be recognized by Matrix/2by3 as totally unsuitable for a strategic simulation of the war in Europe.

Then, maybe UV could be adapted later on for an interesting treatment of the Battle of the Atlantic ... (surface and submarine)?

And no - no - NO German carrier in the Mediterranean, please.