Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:57 pm**

I was wondering do minor countries also have their own research "tree" and is it adjusted somehow? Played just 2-3 games so far till the 1942 (AI isn't quite challenging), didn't see what infantry tech lvl are Swedish or Turkish forces (for example) once/if they join the war...

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:41 pm**

Nope they don't. Look at production screen for your answers.

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:19 pm**

I find it odd that all the German minors get German level tech upgrades but the Italians don't. seems like it would make sense just to have Allied, Axis, and Russian research

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:26 pm**

For what I noticed though, the Minors (at least Axis ones) do not benefit of the production discounts; thus you pay them always at 100% of the cost (upgrades, replacements, etc).
I agree at this stage Italy may as well use the German techs - it is quite odd to see Italians with lvl 0 tanks and Romania / Hungaria with Panthers!

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:51 pm**

Personally, I think Minor units should get the production discounts, but they should only be able to be built at one tech level below the German max. Obviously they shouldn't be able to be promoted in the field to the German max either.

As for the Italians, historically, they did not benefit from German technology until mid '41, and even then only in fighters via German engine technology. Maybe have an event that boosts Italian air combat tech to equal that of Germany's 4 months after German air combat tech advances? In practice, the only items I always research as the Italian are industrial, naval warfare and ASW tech. Air combat and ground attack tech are sporadically researched. Ground units are used as garrisons. It's a bit sad, but realistically, the rules cripple the Italians and makes them very vulnerable. Which at least is accurate...

Posted: **Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:57 pm**

Historicaly I think Italy research was divided from German, so I don't think Italians should use German tech upgrades, they can benefit from tech share to maybe finish projects before than normally.
My question was more referring to hypothetical situation, lets say Sweden joins axis in late 1944. If swedish units are on infantry tech lvl 0-1, and axis & allies are lvl 2-3, that wouldn't be quite realistic I d say. Thatswhy I asked do minors also have some research or their tech lvls are same at 1941 and 1944? How did programmers handle this problem?

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:21 am**

I too feel minors should not receive the full benefit of majors research and tech.

Maybe keep the updates levels on the units, but have them only apply at a 50% or some other percentage to account for lack of training, leadership, etc.

Malor

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:46 am**

My thoughts, too.
Romania with level 5 panzers and Ilaly with only level 2 does not feel right.
A cap for minors should be introduced.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:26 am**

say Sweden joins axis in late 1944. If swedish units are on infantry tech lvl 0-1, and axis & allies are lvl 2-3, that wouldn't be quite realistic I d say.

If Sweden did join the Axis in 1944, I think that the Germans would have to pay for bringing them up to current standards [by shipping large quantities of materiel and training] ? Would you agree ?
The first time I got Turkey to join the Axis I was exited at all the extra units, but then I realized I would have to pay to bring them up to strength and upgrade all of them. It cost over 2,000 MPP's to do that. I think that is fair, as the minor countries did not have the capacity to keep pace with the major's and if a major wants them then they have to pay.
I agree that minors reaching the same level as majors is a little out of whack, but as a player I like the advantage I get from upgrading my Romanians and Hungarians with all the latest stuff so that they can compete with the Soviets [;)]

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:05 am**

ORIGINAL: macroeconomics

Personally, I think Minor units should get the production discounts, but they should only be able to be built at one tech level below the German max. Obviously they shouldn't be able to be promoted in the field to the German max either.

As for the Italians, historically, they did not benefit from German technology until mid '41, and even then only in fighters via German engine technology. Maybe have an event that boosts Italian air combat tech to equal that of Germany's 4 months after German air combat tech advances? In practice, the only items I always research as the Italian are industrial, naval warfare and ASW tech. Air combat and ground attack tech are sporadically researched. Ground units are used as garrisons. It's a bit sad, but realistically, the rules cripple the Italians and makes them very vulnerable. Which at least is accurate...

I agree that the Italians should benefit from German aviation tech advances, perhaps at one level below the level available to German units.

It is more than engine technology, as some Italian air units were equipped with German aircraft, probably as the Germans had moved on to improved models.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:24 am**

To be honest - of all the things that may need a change, this is something I can live with. In the end minors pay full price for their troops, upgrades and replacements; so if Germany can funnel resources into upgrading them with up-to-date equipment / train their personnel etc, by all means.
Leave it so.

There should just be an option where Germany can pay Italy techs for example.
Germany historically also offered to send technicians to Fiat and provide blueprints of Pz.III in '41.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:31 am**

In CEAW the axis minors are always a few (CEAW) tech levels below the Germans, although the Fins not so much, though it's a different game, where manpower is a factor as well etc., so there's more incentive to build up and use the minors

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:37 am**

Technically manpower is a limit here as well - at least I perceive it in the maximum amount of forces allowed per type (Which I deem too low for the Axis given the map size still but that is another tale).
Given my perceptions can be wrong because I am playing vs the AI but currently I am using as many Romanians / Hungarians the base pools (playing with soft limits) allow in Russia. So they've their HQ, their panzer unit and their fighter plus a bunch of infantries.

Meanwhile for Italy I just adapted and not produce nor tech armour - you get 1 at start. You lack funds anyhow for big armour, so best stick with infantries.

But it's not a gamebreaking aspect in the end of the day.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:47 am**

ORIGINAL: Cohen

Technically manpower is a limit here as well - at least I perceive it in the maximum amount of forces allowed per type (Which I deem too low for the Axis given the map size still but that is another tale).
Given my perceptions can be wrong because I am playing vs the AI but currently I am using as many Romanians / Hungarians the base pools (playing with soft limits) allow in Russia. So they've their HQ, their panzer unit and their fighter plus a bunch of infantries.

Meanwhile for Italy I just adapted and not produce nor tech armour - you get 1 at start. You lack funds anyhow for big armour, so best stick with infantries.

But it's not a gamebreaking aspect in the end of the day.

There is a force pool cap, which makes the minors units a little more useful than they might otherwise be, but there is no tracking of the manpower required to replenish depleted units - e.g. there is no manpower impact (only MPPs) for reinforcing 10 infantry armies from 5 strength to 10, which reduces the real impact that the attrition of the war had on available manpower and it's quality.

For Italy, I've been doing much as you - ignoring armour units and tech and focusing on infantry, navy and (when I can afford it) air, seeing as Italy starts with some tech invested in the latter and two air units at the start.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:59 am**

Had this argument before but will say it again. Manpower was not an issue. Never was. Training and equipping the units were the real issue. MP in a game like this makes little sense. It ends up being highly abstracted anyway.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:09 pm**

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

Had this argument before but will say it again. Manpower was not an issue. Never was. Training and equipping the units were the real issue. MP in a game like this makes little sense. It ends up being highly abstracted anyway.

It's not that big a deal, I can live without it, will stick to hard unit number caps, though.

Oil consumption of some kind would be nice, though, or at least some way of making oil matter more for the axis

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:19 pm**

I think in the end you'll need to take as many resources as possible with the Axis to fend off the USA-USSR MPP advantage.

Upgrading the minors is an exercise that'll likely dilute the Axis effort when things are critical, yet it remains a choice and selectively can have its uses.

There are many choices in SC3 that can distract the effort of either side, depending upon the circumstances.

The successful commander is the one that can remain on the clear path to victory as it slowly unfolds.[:'(]

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:56 pm**

I believe Oil Consumption is also accounted, as abstracted.
Mobility upgrades are costier for Axis for what I've read in the manual.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:57 pm**

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

ORIGINAL: macroeconomics

Personally, I think Minor units should get the production discounts, but they should only be able to be built at one tech level below the German max. Obviously they shouldn't be able to be promoted in the field to the German max either.

As for the Italians, historically, they did not benefit from German technology until mid '41, and even then only in fighters via German engine technology. Maybe have an event that boosts Italian air combat tech to equal that of Germany's 4 months after German air combat tech advances? In practice, the only items I always research as the Italian are industrial, naval warfare and ASW tech. Air combat and ground attack tech are sporadically researched. Ground units are used as garrisons. It's a bit sad, but realistically, the rules cripple the Italians and makes them very vulnerable. Which at least is accurate...

I agree that the Italians should benefit from German aviation tech advances, perhaps at one level below the level available to German units.

It is more than engine technology, as some Italian air units were equipped with German aircraft, probably as the Germans had moved on to improved models.

Not really, the aircraft sent to Italy were up to date models.

As for the game, since Germany is paying their MPP to equip the minors, I don´t see a problem with them having the latest technology. They don´t have a production of thei own.
Perhaps Germany should be allowed to buy for Italy also.

Posted: **Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:59 pm**

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

Had this argument before but will say it again. Manpower was not an issue. Never was. Training and equipping the units were the real issue. MP in a game like this makes little sense. It ends up being highly abstracted anyway.

Oh, but it was. Germany, for example, had to choose between the manpower for the armed forces versus manpower for the industry.

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