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Hi to all;

again, i'm playing Barbarossa for first time solo;

now the game has assigned in this turn partisans to USSR;
the point is, as hopefully shown in the screenshot, that their placement is not allowed anywhere in any of the USSR enemy controlled hexes i've tried;

furthermore, the game does nor allow you to continue unless you've placed all the partisans units assigned;

In the screenshot, you can see a partisan unit hovering over Brest Litowsk, non enabled to be placed there (nor anywhre else)


what to do?

thank you;

Hi,

If you check on the main window, you can see an info message that says "Set-up in enemy controlled home country hex", meaning that you should set up the partisans in a Russian hex that is controlled at the moment by Germany. Partisan are supposed to pop-up "behind the enemy lines". I can't see the whole of the map, but I guess there should be at least one Russian hex that is german-controlled where you can deploy your Partisan.

Hope this helps.

Correct; on border with Finland! Placed them ther, thanks!

If the display shows all, you could have placed it on the JU 86 G and it would have been destroyed. Only land units bigger than a division have ZOC, planes don't so the other 2 Ju wouldn have stopped you to.

Yes, ungarrisoned Axis planes, or at least ones not in an Axis zone of control, are the first to die when Russian partisans appear.

Welcome to the game!

You'll have to get used to this ... though every attempt is made in the design to keep these to a minimum, there are frequently fine details to consider in the rules.

The eastern part of Poland becomes "conquered" by the Soviets and is ineligible for placing a PARTisan generated by the "USSR" section of the Partisan table - those Partisans can only be placed in a USSR Home Country hex.

And so those Luftwaffe planes were perfectly safe from _Russian_ Partisans. A Polish Partisan could have been placed there however.

And to make it all more confusing in a full 1939-45 game, when the USSR occupies Bessarabia, those hexes become part of Russia "for all purposes" = Home Country. And thus a Russian Partisan could be placed in a Bessarabia hex, except when Germany takes them back from Russia, I think they can be reverted back to Rumania if Germany wishes. I forget the details on that part. Confused yet?

The Baltic States are handled like Poland - they are conquered by the Soviets. (And never get Partisans however).



And speaking of Partisans, I dreamed up an MWiF question in the AAR/Charts thread. Could you take a look at that, Paul?

I'm not entirely clear on how the partisan determination works. That would be a good subject for Steve to provide a post about, if he has time. It was not "Monte Carlo'd". Steve made some design decisions, FREX if you press F5 you'll see each country can only get a certain number of partisans regardless of how badly it is garrisoned.

But, like the US entry chits, a computer rendition of WiF has no finite counter limits and thus no need for the cheesiness of your 4-2 partisan being plucked from the board to become the other guy's partisan on the other side of the world. For this reason alone, the partisan process needed some amount of redesigning.

Sure, unlimited PART counters is wise.

But I think the pure 1d100 system, for every country, every turn, will inevitably create more Partisans. The math is changed. 1d10&1d10 is not the same as 1d100.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Welcome to the game!

You'll have to get used to this ... though every attempt is made in the design to keep these to a minimum, there are frequently fine details to consider in the rules.

The eastern part of Poland becomes "conquered" by the Soviets and is ineligible for placing a PARTisan generated by the "USSR" section of the Partisan table - those Partisans can only be placed in a USSR Home Country hex.

And so those Luftwaffe planes were perfectly safe from _Russian_ Partisans. A Polish Partisan could have been placed there however.

And to make it all more confusing in a full 1939-45 game, when the USSR occupies Bessarabia, those hexes become part of Russia "for all purposes" = Home Country. And thus a Russian Partisan could be placed in a Bessarabia hex, except when Germany takes them back from Russia, I think they can be reverted back to Rumania if Germany wishes. I forget the details on that part. Confused yet?

The Baltic States are handled like Poland - they are conquered by the Soviets. (And never get Partisans however).



And speaking of Partisans, I dreamed up an MWiF question in the AAR/Charts thread. Could you take a look at that, Paul?

You are correct. It was the fact that he wanted to place it in the brest-Litovsk area what confused me. Brest is in Poland as well. In fact, Adarbrauner doesn't say the nationality of the PART, it could have been polish!

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Sure, unlimited PART counters is wise.

But I think the pure 1d100 system, for every country, every turn, will inevitably create more Partisans. The math is changed. 1d10&1d10 is not the same as 1d100.

I just answered this in the AAR forum.

I would surmise the limits on number of partisans per country were put in place as antidote to the possibility that huge numbers would appear in outlier situations, given an infinite supply of them.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I would surmise the limits on number of partisans per country were put in place as antidote to the possibility that huge numbers would appear in outlier situations, given an infinite supply of them.

Yes.

In brief, the country has to qualify for getting partisans. Next a die is rolled and compared to the partisan number for the country (from the data file) to see if partisans might appear. Should the fist die roll succeed, a second die is rolled to see how many partisans might appear. Then there has to be room for the partisans to be placed on the map. The number of partisans appearing in a turn is also limited to 3 maximum. Garrisons are also a factor in these calculations.

Here are in-line comments from the code:

============

// ****************************************************************************
// To get partisans, a country must be at least a subcountry.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Yugoslavia and Bulgaria do not get partisans in Barbarossa. Those countries
// are only there for rail movement from Germany to Rumania.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// PartisanMaxCount is used for counting the number of partisans for which there
// is room. It starts at 0 and is incremented by the number of open slots found
// on the map. It has a maximum of 3, since no more than 3 partisans can appear
// in a country during a turn.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// To get partisans, a country must be legal, have some chance of getting
// partisans, and have fewer than 3 partisans as MaxCount. The last restriction
// is dynamic, as described immediately above. Also dynamic is HasEnemyUnit.
// Both are built within these loops to check every hex on the map, and a hex
// can be skipped if both have been set for country SubC.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Check SubC's political relationships to see if partisans are possible.
// ****************************************************************************
if ((not SubC.RedPartisans) and // Not red partisans,
SubC.Neutral and // neutral, and
(not WarC.Conquered)) or // not conquered.
(SubC.RedPartisans and // Red partisans, but
(SubC.ControllingMajorPower <> nil) and // controlling major
SubC.ControllingMajorPower.Neutral) then // power isn't active.
Continue;

// ****************************************************************************
// CP is the original owner of the hex allowing for China & the Ukraine.
// ****************************************************************************
if C = China then CP := China
else if C = Ukraine then CP := USSR // Just until Ukraine code written.
else if SubC = Siberia then CP := USSR
else CP := SubC.HomeCountry.ControllingPartisanCountry;

// ****************************************************************************
// Found a hex not controlled by player controlling the partisans.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Count how many openings are available and compare it to the # of partisans to
// be created. If there are not enough openings, reduce the # of partisans to
// be created.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Since we need another opening, try placing two partisans in the hex.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// PNumber is the Partisan Number. This is the number the die roll must exceed
// in order for partisans to appear in the country. This is directly from data
// file.
// ****************************************************************************
PNumber := SC.Partisans;

// ****************************************************************************
// Red partisan countries are never in their first year of partisans. If the
// SubCountry was controlled by a major power at the start of the war, then that
// major power's status for Neutral This Year is used. If a SubCountry belongs
// to another minor country (e.g., Dutch Guyana belongs to the Netherlands),
// then its parent minor country's status for Neutral This Year is used.
// ****************************************************************************

// ****************************************************************************
// Calculate the probabilities for 1, 2, and 3 partisans.
// ****************************************************************************

Sounds good ... and sounds like MWiF uses the two, independent die roll system as per original WiF -but- simplifies it on-screen to only reporting a 3% chance for a Partisan to appear in an ungarrisoned Korea.

I still believe rolling a die to select the tests and then rolling a second die for the test would be different than rolling two dice for every country, but MWiF does not do it that way, as it turns out.


Edit:
I think. I re-read it - does MWiF check every country that -could- get a Partisan, or does it first select 8 countries to check?

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Sounds good ... and sounds like MWiF uses the two, independent die roll system as per original WiF -but- simplifies it on-screen to only reporting a 3% chance for a Partisan to appear in an ungarrisoned Korea.

I still believe rolling a die to select the tests and then rolling a second die for the test would be different than rolling two dice for every country, but MWiF does not do it that way, as it turns out.


Edit:
I think. I re-read it - does MWiF check every country that -could- get a Partisan, or does it first select 8 countries to check?

Every country.

deleted

Then that is a change, and what I have been trying to discover. WiF caps the tests/turn at 8. The overall chance of a Partisan in any one country is exactly the same. But testing more countries should result in more Partisans generated as a total.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Then that is a change, and what I have been trying to discover. WiF caps the tests/turn at 8. The overall chance of a Partisan in any one country is exactly the same. But testing more countries should result in more Partisans generated as a total.

The probabilities for each country getting partisans are the same as for the board game. In the board game the first die roll guaranteed some countries would be tested a second time, and others would not be tested. MWIF tests each country independently. As the board game handled this issue, which countries were tested a second time were interdependent - that was a convenience for the players but made no logical sense.

I am no expert on probability by any means. It was just a simple chart to use, and I never saw a logic problem with it. I have read a couple comments here that MWiF seems to generate a lot of Partisans. This could be why, or I look to be wrong on this I guess. But it nags at me, fixed cap of 8 tests vs. testing every case. More tests across the set as a whole though the same # of tests against a single member of the set.

The worst class I ever took was Theory of Algebra. The only #s encountered were 0, 1, and -1. That almost seemed like they appeared just as a charitable break from the Greek alphabet.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I am no expert on probability by any means. It was just a simple chart to use, and I never saw a logic problem with it. I have read a couple comments here that MWiF seems to generate a lot of Partisans. This could be why, or I look to be wrong on this I guess. But it nags at me, fixed cap of 8 tests vs. testing every case. More tests across the set as a whole though the same # of tests against a single member of the set.

The worst class I ever took was Theory of Algebra. The only #s encountered were 0, 1, and -1. That almost seemed like they appeared just as a charitable break from the Greek alphabet.

Let's simplify the table to one column and 4 possibilities. Each of the 4 countries has a 25% chance of being selected.

In WIFFE, 1 country would be selected 100% of the time:
0 - 0%
1 - 100%

In MWIF, the probabilities would be:
0 - 3*3*3*3/256 = 81/256
1 - 3*3*3*4/256 = 108/256
2 - 3*3*3*2/256 = 54/256
3 - 3*4/256 = 12/256
4 - 1/256

The mean (average) would be the same.

Instead of an 8 column table, let's use a 2 column table, as it involves less typing. And instead of a d10, lets use a d2 (a coin, Heads (H), and Tails (T)).

Say there are two countries, A & B.

Using the WiF method, you would flip the coin, and get either A or B. You would then flip the coin again, and if it came up H, you get a partisan, if T, not. The probability of getting a partisan in A is 25%, as it is for B.

In the MWiF, you would roll a single d4 for each country. The odds would, again be 25% chance of getting a partisan in each country.

The total average number of partisans generated is the same. What is different is that the correlations between the countries have disappeared. In WiF, you would never get partisans in both countries; half the time you would get partisans in no countries, one quarter of the time you would get one in A, and the final quarter of the time you would get one in B. In MWiF, you would not get any partisans 9/16 of the time; 1/16 of the time you would get partisans in both countries; 3/16 of the time you will get one partisan in A, and none in B, and 3/16 of the time you will get one in B, and none in A. If you add this up, you get the same average number of partisans appearing, 1/2, as in the WiF method.

Not to argue from authority, but I am good at probability, and the two methods give the same average number of partisans appearing.