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News Flash: Pearl Harbor attacked by Japan, heavy casualties reported; Air raids on Manilla and Singapore. Japanese troops reported landing on the Philipines Islands and Malay Peninsula. President Roosevelt to address Congress.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/41

Sub attack near Catbalogan at 45,56

Japanese Ships
AP Shinano Maru

Allied Ships
SS S-39


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Air attack on Singapore , at 23,50

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
G3M Nell x 80

Allied aircraft
Sea Gladiator x 1
Buffalo I x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
G3M Nell x 1 destroyed
G3M Nell x 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I x 1 destroyed
Buffalo I x 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 15, Torpedo hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
DD Isis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Danae, Bomb hits 1
BB Prince of Wales, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
DD Express, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Mauritius, Bomb hits 1
DD Scout, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Thanet, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Durban, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CA Exeter, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Vampire, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
10 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
11 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
11 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
9 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
9 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet

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Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 56
G3M Nell x 31
G4M1 Betty x 44

Allied aircraft
P-26A x 1

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-26A x 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
SS S-38, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Sealion, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Peary, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
SS S-41, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Seal, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Porpoise, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Paul Jones, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
SS Snapper, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Capillo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Princess of Negros, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AS Canopus, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Don Jose, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AP President Madison, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
SS Salmon, Bomb hits 1, on fire
MSW Tanager, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Pecos, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AD Black Hawk, Torpedo hits 1
SS Perch, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Pike, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Shark, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Tulsa, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD John D. Ford, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Seawolf, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS S-37, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Pillsbury, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS S-40, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
SS Swordfish, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Sculpin, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Stingray, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
PT 31, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Corregidor, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AO Trinity, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Paz, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
SS Sturgeon, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Pope, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PT 34, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Finch, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Penguin, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Sagoland, Bomb hits 1
SS Permit, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
11 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
6 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
6 x G3M Nell at 6000 feet
11 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
8 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
7 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
6 x G4M1 Betty at 6000 feet
5 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 6000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 6000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet

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Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 112,68

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
D3A Val x 78
B5N Kate x 104

Allied aircraft
P-36A Mohawk x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 6 damaged


Allied Ships
BB Colorado, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 18, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
SS Dolphin, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 11, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Cuttlefish, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DMS Boggs, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Salt Lake City, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Chester, Bomb hits 1
DD Monaghan, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
16 x B5N Kate at 8000 feet
24 x B5N Kate at 200 feet
16 x B5N Kate at 200 feet
16 x B5N Kate at 8000 feet
16 x B5N Kate at 200 feet
15 x B5N Kate at 200 feet

I have to hope that there is an awful lot of work yet to be
done on Witp based on the results posted above. Not only
is the accuracy of the attacks extraordinarily high (compare the
historic results at Pearl Harbor with those listed above), but
there are a number of errors that shouldn't be in a well-researched game. The Colorado wasn't at Pearl Harbor
on December 7th. Many of the victims of the Manilla attack
were at sea that day. Singapore isn't even in torpedo range
of Japanese bombers. Hermes wasn't at Singapore at all.

I sure hope that this is a VERY rough approximation of the
game to come.

That AAR is cracked. I hope it's not typical of what WitP portends to be. The targeting of subs and auxiliaries is extremely ahistorical for the Japanese for this period, and the hyper-accuracy of the attacks is beyond absurd.

The number of Japanese a/c involved at Manila and Singapore seems exaggerated, and the cooridnation of the attacks is likewise highly overestimated.

Hi, Yeah but outside of all that, Is it not exciting to see?

The game is only in the Alpha stage at this point and much remains to be done. (but what is, is a wonder to behold )

Please lets not all read too much out of it and just enjoy the moment.

Originally posted by mdiehl
That AAR is cracked. I hope it's not typical of what WitP portends to be.

No matter what WitP portends to be, I don't imagine you will be happy. :p

Nik and Cap

You two are starting to sound like kids on Christmas day.

Nah, nah, nah, look what I got!

How about you stop all this showing off and get back to the UV beta like your supposed too.

Bloody children.:p

Some of us are trying to be professionals.

...for the playtesters needs to be brought into focus. Aside
from the technical matters like does this function work at all, the
big thing is "DOES THIS 'FEEL' RIGHT?"

On the theory that the entire Japanese High Command was
NOT composed of drooling morons, doesn't it seem unlikely that
if there REALLY existed a chance to totally eliminate all naval opposition in the Pacific Basin on December 7th, they wouldn't
have done so? That's pretty much what the results above work
out too. So unless you assume that the "alpha test" players
are WAY more competent than the Naval professionals who had
been planning this offensive for years and knew their own capabilities better than anyone else---then you have to assume
that there is something quite WRONG with the "simulation". It's
allowing players to do things that the real participants could not.

I'd just feel better if "cap and gown's" gleeful recitation of his
turn one success had been accompanied with a message from
him that "As these results are completely absurd, I've told 2by3
that they have a lot of work to do and listed the following flaws.."

Originally posted by Drongo
Nik and Cap

Some of us are trying to be professionals.

Then get your butt out of the bar and back in front of your computer you silly goose. :p

p.s. "nah nah"

You can rest assured that any abnormalities we discover in the Alpha version we report to Matrix and 2by3 long before they appear up on the public boards here. You can bet that if you notice something strange, the 20 or so testers looking for anything strange will probably have picked up on it too.
Of course, that doesnt mean that you shouldn't point out things you think are weird because we're not perfect, obviously.

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
...for the playtesters needs to be brought into focus. Aside
from the technical matters like does this function work at all, the
big thing is "DOES THIS 'FEEL' RIGHT?"

On the theory that the entire Japanese High Command was
NOT composed of drooling morons, doesn't it seem unlikely that
if there REALLY existed a chance to totally eliminate all naval opposition in the Pacific Basin on December 7th, they wouldn't
have done so? That's pretty much what the results above work
out too. So unless you assume that the "alpha test" players
are WAY more competent than the Naval professionals who had
been planning this offensive for years and knew their own capabilities better than anyone else---then you have to assume
that there is something quite WRONG with the "simulation". It's
allowing players to do things that the real participants could not.

I'd just feel better if "cap and gown's" gleeful recitation of his
turn one success had been accompanied with a message from
him that "As these results are completely absurd, I've told 2by3
that they have a lot of work to do and listed the following flaws.."

Hi Mike !
It's still an Alpha and there are many things yet to be implemented. Joel has a list about a mile long and I'm not sure that includes everything. You're correct that the results in this AAR is way out of whack. the reasuring thing here though is that it is moving forward. Cap is a newby, Now I guess I'd better see if Drongo needs some help in taking Cap out behind his shed and tanning his hyde!

Mike

Thank you for the reassurance. CAP & GOWN's unquestioning
excitement over his results coupled with his failure to note even
the obvious errors in OB was kinda frightening if it was an example of an "average playtester". Couple that to the number
of "problems" that survived playtesting in UV, and the "quality
assurance" factor for WitP was taking some major hits.

Hopefully when he get's around to doing a "beta" test he'll
have to deal with the "Ugle Head of Reality Rearing up to Bite
his Privates (also his Sergants, Captians, and Admirals). Keep
on them to get the Aircraft Ranges to match the mission loads.

Posted by Mike Scholl

Thank you for the reassurance. CAP & GOWN's unquestioning excitement over his results coupled with his failure to note even the obvious errors in OB was kinda frightening if it was an example of an "average playtester". Couple that to the number of "problems" that survived playtesting in UV, and the "quality assurance" factor for WitP was taking some major hits.

Hopefully when he get's around to doing a "beta" test he'll
have to deal with the "Ugle Head of Reality Rearing up to Bite
his Privates (also his Sergants, Captians, and Admirals). Keep
on them to get the Aircraft Ranges to match the mission loads.

Like, you're really helping your mission load cause by saying this.

Have you thought of trying a subtle suck job instead? (Hope that translates correctly. Now I think about it, either interpretation will probably work).

Originally posted by Drongo
Posted by Mike Scholl


Like, you're really helping your mission load cause by saying this.

Have you thought of trying a subtle suck job instead? (Hope that translates correctly. Now I think about it, either interpretation will probably work).

The POINT was that "the cause" shouldn't NEED any help---
if the game is to be a "simulation" of an historical event, then
ANY historical inaccuracy that shows up in testing should immediately raise "red flags" for the playtesters. The only SUCK
I'm interested in is that the game shouldn't!

Don't know how C & G's AAR was obtained, but I sure hope it wasn't from one player's screen exclusively, if it's supposed to be taken seriously. I thought Fog of War was going to be incorporated in WiTP.

Fog of War in combat reports is really essential, IMHO. Also in sighting reports, and reports of sighting reports. And I still think it's a big mistake in UV to have a previously unidentified enemy TF given away by a report that it's unable to fly missions due to the weather.

No matter what WitP portends to be, I don't imagine you will be happy.

I'd be much happier if the playtesters that post AARs evidenced any knowledge of the history (events, technology, tactics, 'typical' combat results, and so forth) of the period.

Originally posted by mdiehl
I'd be much happier if the playtesters that post AARs evidenced any knowledge of the history (events, technology, tactics, 'typical' combat results, and so forth) of the period.

Mdiehl,

I think you should cut the playtesters some slack. They seem to have a good overall knowlegde of history and tactics ect....Sure the AAR is out of whack, but its just Alpha. I can assure you that, that it does not reflect what is the norm in UV. I suspect that getting more realistice combat results is just a matter of adjusting the initial shock effect downward.

Some areas of concern for me, One is the incorrect initial deploymetns. I do hope that they pay careful attention to this (although with a good editor this probably is not a big deal). Two is the ability of the Nells and Betty's to make torpedo runs in confine ports like Cavite and Singapore. Twin engine bombers needed long unobstructed runs to be effective. I doubt there were anymore than a few if any ports in the Pacific large enough for such attacks. Personally I would exclude twin engine planes the ability to mount torp attacks in port, but I suppose players would come up with reasons why it would be possible even if unlikely. So perhaps high moral and disruption hits would do the trick to limit there effectiveness.

Again, we just have to keep reminding ourselves its just alpha.

Regards

Originally posted by mdiehl
I'd be much happier if the playtesters that post AARs evidenced any knowledge of the history (events, technology, tactics, 'typical' combat results, and so forth) of the period.

There are several testers that are well grounded in the history and tactic of the era. Not only that but we've served some time our selves some of us on general staffs so we understand the issues. C&G got a little overexcited (newbies) That's probably why we don't post AAR's from an alpha. Yes there are some oob challenges as shown but they've already been noted and work is progressing to fixing them. Knowing Joel's quest to get things as perfect as possible, you won't see a release until it's there. The main point being it's really comming. If you've points that you'd like to see addressed. put them in a thread. Believe it or not Both Joel and David (as well as others read these) Mike Scholl mentioned something about loadouts I'm not sure the context but if it's specifically listed we'll look at it. Please remember I don't speak for either Matrix or 2by3, just someone fortunate enough to be chosen to help test UV and WITP.

OMG! It was actually the US that started the war! The (attempted) torpedoing of the Shinano Maru by a rogue submarine, percipitated massive reprisals by the government of Japan!

-F-

I doubt there were anymore than a few if any ports in the Pacific large enough for such attacks.

Rabaul and Truk are the only ones that come to mind offhand.