Matrix Games Forums

Hi All

I'm a veteran wargamer with 30yrs service but for the first time ever I find I need to ask for advice about WITP(AE).

Yes, I have experience of naval games before, having played the excellent (in their day) Great Naval battles series (The Guadalcanal and Coral Sea campaigns were excellent), 1942 (which combined strategic play with tactical air battles), and Midway, and others portraying events in the Atlantic and Arctic Sea.

So, I'd like to make some observations about how I see things and I'd appreciate feedback on how to interpret these and advice on how to interact with the game in a meaningful way.

First, I'd like to state that the game looks beautiful, is incredibly detailed, and can be chillingly realistic.

Ok, so, I've been using the Buccaneer scenario (objective capture Redang or Port Blair) for 'training'. So far I've played it through four times with varying degrees of success (or in one case abject defeat!).

This is what I've seen or don't quite understand:-

1. During a complete turn there's masses of data coming my way; possible sightings of ships and subs, aircraft etc, but rarely does any sort of unit symbol appear on the map, just a hex is listed.

When the turn ends and I attempt to react where do I find all this information for review? There's signals' intelligence, operational reports, and a summary of losses and current scenario score, but all those sighting reports?

I would have liked to see an 'incident' marker on the map with a pop-up of the relevant information, e.g.a periscope with pop-up 'Blenheim depth charged sub here (date and time)

I am having to laboriously find all these hexes on the map manually and assess their relevance and importance. Is there an easier way?

2. Even on the very rare occasion an enemy TF symbol does remain on the map during my orders phase, I cannot order an attack on it! What am I doing wrong?

If I leave the CV to plan its own day, occasionally it will attack, but more often doesn't. What to do?

3. CV v CV battles seem very difficult to orchestrate and again rare. During my 4 playthroughs only once have my CVs located and attacked an enemy CV and this was achieved by leaving the flotilla commander discretion on air operations, but most times he does nothing!

When I correctly guess an enemy CV location, search that area, leaving torpedo /dive bombers listed as Naval attack (but not specifying the target, unless a land base, because it is not allowed), most times there's no attack.

Sometimes an enemy CV has attacked mine and I am pleased my CAP works and any fighters kept in reserve are usually scrambled to intervene.

In one extreme case I had already captured Port Blair, the airstrip was operational and I'd flown in some Seafires and Barracudas, when a 2CV Japanese task force turned up in the bay. Despite the marker being on the map, I could not order an airstrike! Why?

So, what am I doing wrong here?

4. During an island base combat the results seem very variable - fair enough, but why when I am subjected to a Japanese bombardment attack, why do I get information as to how many casualties they themselves have suffered, presumably as a result of a counter-bombardment, yet I get no info on my own casualties?

How would I know exactly how many gunners were being used against me?

If I attack, casualties are often fairly even for a deliberate attack, but the enemy often experiences ten-fold my losses with a shock attack? Again, apparently exact numbers of troops on each side are listed complete with casualty totals. How would I know this?

5. Reconnaissance missions can fly over a base every day for weeks, very rarely being shot down, and I hear the clicking camera noise but seemingly get absolutely no extra information for this effort, e.g. probable troop numbers, fortification level, airstrip and port capabilities.

Where do I find this information?

I think that's enough for now. Please realise these are not gripes. I just need to know how best to enjoy this game.

Thanks in advance for any tips or advice.

Welcome to the game and forum.

That is a lot to cover at first.
We can go one by one.

I would say the first thing is to see if you have the correct game set up.

Look on your main menu screen and check the version number. What does it say?
It may not look like mine posted below as I'm running the Beta.

Are you able to provide screen shots so that we can see what you are looking at?

I'm late for a meeting so don't have time now to go into details.
 
Firstly, the manual deals with the OP issues eg ss.7.2.1.7 - 7.2.1.7.2 (pages 162 - 164) deals with target selection.
 
Secondly, there are some third party utilities which many players find useful.  There is less need for these utilities if playing the Allied side compared to playing Japan but the game is very playable without them.  I personally don't use any third party utility.
 
Thirdly, contrary to what some will tell you, this is a game, not a simulator.  The AE devs always stated that it is a game and they know what they were designing.  One consequence of this is that in most areas the player has only, at best, limited indirect control.
 
Alfred

Alfred still manages to post something when he's late for a meeting. What an invaluable resource he is! First thing that pops out to me is don't become infatuated with shock attacks. They are generally unwise to order and are sometimes imposed on you and that is rarely if ever a good thing. The game does not make things easy for you, well that is as it should be. Some satellite programs help somewhat like Tracker. For the most part the better the game simulates FOW the better.

When you a looking for a carrier fight, make sure you have plenty of search aircraft in the air. This includes setting a small percentage of your strike aircraft to search (I set them to 10% search) and the rest to bomb. The higher the detection level on the enemy fleet the better the chance of you launching a strike and of that strike going in with maximum coordination. Other factors such as weather and leadership do apply and might prevent you from launching a strike. You can never have enough air search coverage.

A successful recon mission will allow you to just scroll your mouse over the base to get information on that base. The higher the detection level the better the information. Make sure to use camera equipped aircraft with experienced crews. One or two days of recon should give you very good information if your plane has a camera. No camera and you might have to recon the hex for a week or so.

Just keep playing smaller scenarios until you get a feel for the mechanics. Also, read some after action reports in this forum. You will learn a lot from them.

Hi Energisteron,
The game is quite complex and even after years of playing and studying the documentation you'll continue to find things you don't know about.

It also helps to have a good fundamental understanding of the game mechanics so I've answered your questions with a healthy amount of detail to hopefully help you understand how things work.

1. During a complete turn there's masses of data coming my way; possible sightings of ships and subs, aircraft etc, but rarely does any sort of unit symbol appear on the map, just a hex is listed.

When the turn ends and I attempt to react where do I find all this information for review? There's signals' intelligence, operational reports, and a summary of losses and current scenario score, but all those sighting reports?

I would have liked to see an 'incident' marker on the map with a pop-up of the relevant information, e.g.a periscope with pop-up 'Blenheim depth charged sub here (date and time)

I am having to laboriously find all these hexes on the map manually and assess their relevance and importance. Is there an easier way?

A large quantity of the information produced during a turn is placed in one of the reports or directly on the map in some way.

For example:
Ship and sub sightings are placed in the operational report and after filtering (automatically by the game) they are placed on the map.
Aircraft reports (e.g. sightings of enemy aircraft by your own ships, search aircraft being shot at, transport aircraft being shot at, aircraft crashing on landing, being written off, and similar) are in the operational report.
Combat is in the combat report, which can be turned on and off in the game preferences.
Recon reports (e.g. ships spotted at anchor) are placed on the map.

There are no incident markers and no direct link between the reports and the map.
The interface was not built with that in mind and whilst it can be frustrating given the general advances in UI over the years you will, in time, learn roughly where things are on the map grid and the interface does let you jump to specific bases and units easily enough.

You will also learn what is and is not important to pay attention to, for example if you know a sub is roaming around a specific area that is usually enough for you to do something about it.
Transports moving through the area? Consider routing them around it.
Hunting it with an ASW surface task force? Use the patrol mechanism and make sure the react range is set to max (in the TF window, bottom right) and the ships should chase the sub around automatically.
Hunting it with an ASW carrier force? Put the carrier in range and let the aircraft take care of it.

The general idea is that usually you don't need to track sighting reports on a hex by hex basis.

Key information such as carrier positions, invasion fleets, or bombardment groups can get lost in the volume of information however, at least vs. the AI, if you don't immediately see their fleet units then those fleet units will often do something to get your attention.

2. Even on the very rare occasion an enemy TF symbol does remain on the map during my orders phase, I cannot order an attack on it! What am I doing wrong?

If I leave the CV to plan its own day, occasionally it will attack, but more often doesn't. What to do?

Firstly - why you can't find carriers, in the Operation Buccaneer scenario (#13 in the list of stock scenarios) the Japanese carriers don't turn up until about a month after the scenario begins.

As for directly attacking them, or any other naval unit, the simple answer is you can't.

All naval attacks along with any other activity set on "commander discretion" will chose targets automatically.

For non-naval attacks you should be setting targets or your assets will waste a lot of energy achieving very little.

For naval attacks your role is to setup the situation as best you can to achieve your goals.

This involves:
Getting search aircraft in place (e.g. from land bases, carriers, and float plane equipped ships).
Making sure your aircraft have enough supplies (e.g. base supply, carrier stores, torpedos available at air HQ if based on land).
Making sure your strike platform (e.g. carrier) is in range for the aircraft involved at their current settings.

If your search aircraft can see the enemy, your planes have enough supply available, your planes are set to the right mission, the weather is not terrible, your pilots have decent morale, your leaders are not scared of a fight, and your planes are in range then a strike should go out.

If flying in to opposition (e.g. enemy CAP) then your strike (esp. from land based units) will tend to want an escort before it will fly.

3. CV v CV battles seem very difficult to orchestrate and again rare. During my 4 playthroughs only once have my CVs located and attacked an enemy CV and this was achieved by leaving the flotilla commander discretion on air operations, but most times he does nothing!

When I correctly guess an enemy CV location, search that area, leaving torpedo /dive bombers listed as Naval attack (but not specifying the target, unless a land base, because it is not allowed), most times there's no attack.

Sometimes an enemy CV has attacked mine and I am pleased my CAP works and any fighters kept in reserve are usually scrambled to intervene.

In one extreme case I had already captured Port Blair, the airstrip was operational and I'd flown in some Seafires and Barracudas, when a 2CV Japanese task force turned up in the bay. Despite the marker being on the map, I could not order an airstrike! Why?

So, what am I doing wrong here?

For CV vs. CV battles. If your CV's do spot enemy CV's often the carriers will react to each other and launch strikes no matter how bad the odds of success are.
They do need to be close enough though - around 10 hexes or so - to react.
About the only thing that will stop any strikes from either side is bad weather.

If they are getting close and not fighting, chase them.
In the buccaneer scenario your fighters have much shorter range than your bombers and you will probably want to use your bombers on normal range at most to actually be effective.
So close the gap - charge right up to them (range 2 or 3) and follow them if they run away.

You outnumber them so force the fight or at least find out where they are going to so you know where to watch in case they come out again.
If they retreat to port you can also try attacking the port.
Most bases look to have at least some fighter cover though, and there are some land based torpedo bombers around, so make sure your fighter groups are ready if you do try a port attack.

Do keep in mind that you need to see them during the turn and the best way to do this is to spot them during the turn and not rely on sightings from previous turns.
What usually happens is some aircraft in the carrier task force are on search and they spot targets and strikes can then launch.

Also keep in mind that units move so you need to think ahead and put your fleet where the enemy is going and not where they currently are.
Also keep in mind that the sighting reports may not give you accurate information on speed or heading so spend some time considering what the hostile task force is doing and thus where it might be going, consider how fast the ships in the task force move in general, and consider where it is based out of and thus where it might return to when it finishes its task.

4. During an island base combat the results seem very variable - fair enough, but why when I am subjected to a Japanese bombardment attack, why do I get information as to how many casualties they themselves have suffered, presumably as a result of a counter-bombardment, yet I get no info on my own casualties?

How would I know exactly how many gunners were being used against me?

If I attack, casualties are often fairly even for a deliberate attack, but the enemy often experiences ten-fold my losses with a shock attack? Again, apparently exact numbers of troops on each side are listed complete with casualty totals. How would I know this?

Bombardments will result in counter-bombardment fire from appropriate devices so you are correct in identifying why they take damage during their own bombardment.
If there is no info on your own casualties you probably didn't take any.
Small scale bombardments, and even large scale bombardments, can (esp. in rough terrain and/or vs. fortified units), do little damage to the target and some damage to the side bombarding.

Regarding how many guns you are facing you can only really guess - look at the units involved (in the combat report), look up their info (you may have to start a game as the other side to do this), and guess at their strength level (e.g. maybe the guns are disabled or in a fragment somewhere else).

Ground combat depends on the type and quality of forces involved, the place being fought over, preparation, disruption (e.g. from airstrikes), supply level, leaders, and HQ's nearby.

Without knowing the circumstances of the fight it's hard to say if your results are good or bad.
If your deliberate attack resulted in 1:1 odds then I would expect an even exchange.
If your shock attack tipped those odds to, say, 3:1 or higher and resulted in you capturing the base then maybe some small units were destroyed or you punched through their front line forces and hit the support squads.
The combat report will tell you how the damage was distributed between device types so you can compare the effect of your different attacks.

5. Reconnaissance missions can fly over a base every day for weeks, very rarely being shot down, and I hear the clicking camera noise but seemingly get absolutely no extra information for this effort, e.g. probable troop numbers, fortification level, airstrip and port capabilities.

Where do I find this information?

You always know the airfield and port levels of the base from the map itself.
Fortification improvements you can't see until you launch a land assault however if they increase it is shown in the operations report.

Recon missions increase the detection of units present at the base which affects the info shown around the base hex on the map.

If you highlight the icons on the corner of each base it will show you estimates for:
Types of ships and number of ships in port.
Number of ground units and how many of each troop type is present overall.
Number of fighters, bombers, and auxiliary aircraft present.

The more recon the higher the detection level and the more accurate the information is.

It's still light on detail and of questionable accuracy even with good recon however it helps you see what is there in general and better detection does seem to help attack missions.

I hope this helps you
- Deathifier

I don't think I've ever responded to a forum poster whose post count in one (1). Welcome.

As has been said, it is imperative to read the manual sections on DL and MDL. They are core concepts in the naval portion of the game, and some air portions.

Beyond that--and I've played some of the naval games you have as well as others--if I can offer advice, it would be to mentally throw out those other games. AE is different, and much harder. You don't so much "play" AE as "create the conditions where the game can play itself." You maneuver, and allocate, and set specifications, then stand aside and let things resolve in WEGO fashion.

Since AE, vast and deep, inherently attracts players who love control and experimentation, this need to let go is difficult. It has been that way for going on two decades now, through the game engine's evolution in several titles. It is counter-intuitive to many former wargamers who are used to issuing orders and having them carried out. AE isn't like that.

Find a hill. Unroll a ball of string from the top. Go to the bottom and start pushing. If that appeals to you, repeat roughly 1500 times over 3-4 real time years. That's an AE grand campaign. [8D]

What helps me with sifting through the data is the Combat Reporter Tool.
tm.asp?m=2456864

Others use WitPTracker AE, but I have a hard time getting it to run.
tm.asp?m=2236936

Daryl

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I don't think I've ever responded to a forum poster whose post count in one (1). Welcome.

As has been said, it is imperative to read the manual sections on DL and MDL. They are core concepts in the naval portion of the game, and some air portions.

Beyond that--and I've played some of the naval games you have as well as others--if I can offer advice, it would be to mentally throw out those other games. AE is different, and much harder. You don't so much "play" AE as "create the conditions where the game can play itself." You maneuver, and allocate, and set specifications, then stand aside and let things resolve in WEGO fashion.

Since AE, vast and deep, inherently attracts players who love control and experimentation, this need to let go is difficult. It has been that way for going on two decades now, through the game engine's evolution in several titles. It is counter-intuitive to many former wargamers who are used to issuing orders and having them carried out. AE isn't like that.

Find a hill. Unroll a ball of string from the top. Got to the bottom and start pushing. If that appeals to you, repeat roughly 1500 times over 3-4 real time years. That's an AE grand campaign. [8D]

+1
New blood is good.

Many thanks to everyone who has responded so thoroughly and with such helpful comments.

I will re-read the sections of the manual as indicated, take a few screenshots now and again when I have similar or fresh comments, and try to take a more hands-off approach. Over the next couple of days I will try to reassess things having absorbed all this information. Thanks again.

I had realised of course that the friendly AI was proactive, but I need to know just how much leeway to give the commanders so they fulfill my objectives.

May I ask, if I simply tell CVs to go to a certain position, will they instigate attacks and CAP of their own accord?

I'll report back after my next playthrough.

All that's said above is good advice. Let me add this, read, play, play, read. Now do that about 100 times and you will begin to understand this 'time vampire' of a game. Its not for the faint of heart or those without a true dedication. The game has a learning cliff, not a learning curve. BTW kiss your family good-bye, tell your friends you're never going to see them again, and forget life as you know or knew it.[:D] You are about to enter the 'AE zone'

May I ask, if I simply tell CVs to go to a certain position, will they instigate attacks and CAP of their own accord?

They will, but you must set your air groups to what you want them to do, ie, naval strike, CAP, escort, altitudes, reaction range (for the TF), etc, etc, etc. BTW use the patrol option, not the go to hex option. With the go to hex the TF will simply go to that location and return. If you set the remain button it'll simply go to that location and most likely do nothing.

Welcome to the forum, Energisteron

Be prepared to have a lot of moments of "Ehm..why did it turn out like this?" while you are playing. But most all of those will have this or that logical explanation inside. One of the beauties of this game is that it is hardly possible to know everything about how it functions, yet it functions in a quite believable way. Developers put inside an immense amount of detail in how little parts interact with each other and with the circumstances. So moving along the learning curve never ends, and is a metagame of its own.

As for your immediate question, you can plot the route for carriers and tell airgroups what kind of duty to perform. After that they decide on their own how to behave given the duties. Naval attack is one of the duties - but they first need to find targets (means search). And airgroup commanders must decide that it is sufficiently safe to fly attack (means commander stats, escorts, enemy presence etc factored in). And weather should comply. And...

Anyone who claims to be a friend, but tries to pull you out of here, is no friend of yours. If they say "think about your family, your children" ignore them.

I think the biggest hurdle for new players is to understand that they are not taking the place of Fletcher or Nimitz on the bridge of their carriers, but they are assuming the role of Admiral King sitting in his headquarters in Washington.

The micromanagement aspects of this game confuse this issue a bit but the reality is the player sets up the strategic situation, dispatches his forces and then just sits back and hopes the commanders on the spot do their job properly. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Not knowing exactly what happened is just part of this. Welcome to the world of the real life senior commander.

Once you understand this and stop fighting the game system, I think you will enjoy the game a whole lot more. [:)]

Best of luck,

ORIGINAL: Energisteron

I had realised of course that the friendly AI was proactive, but I need to know just how much leeway to give the commanders so they fulfill my objectives.

May I ask, if I simply tell CVs to go to a certain position, will they instigate attacks and CAP of their own accord?

I wouldn't call the friendly AI proactive as it's just following orders.
There is no circumstance I'm aware of where your units will change their settings in response to opportunities that arise during a turn.
All changes are in response to something happening directly to a unit or as a result of something the unit is already doing.

For your CV's this means the air groups on board will, as with air groups anywhere else, stick to their assigned settings.
So if you have your CV air groups assigned to attack an airfield as their primary mission and enemy naval units turn up, the strikes against the airfield will continue and the naval units will be ignored.

Similarly if you have a dive bomber group stood down (training, 0%) at a base and an invasion force turns up your bombers will stay on the ground taking a break even as the enemy transports unload in front of them.

There are limited circumstances where air group settings will change at the end of a turn.
One example is if units on a ground attack mission destroy all of the units in the targeted hex the ground attack mission will remain set but the target will change to commander's discretion.

For ground units their movement mode can change if they are attacked during the turn (most commonly units in move mode being hit by air strikes). If the attack is an air strike the mode is changed before the movement phase of the same turn making it a great way to slow down approaching land units.
Also if the ground units are attacking and get less than 1:1 odds in a battle they will cancel the attack order at the end of the battle.

Naval task forces can change their settings during a turn depending on the task force type, settings, and what happens to the task force during the turn.
For naval units this is well documented in section 6.2 of the manual.

- Deathifier

Thank you for these additional comments and all the encouragement.

I've gleaned a lot from this and intend starting up the hypothetical Aleutians campaign for a change. This seems to have no CVs but I'll see how it goes. I'm going to concentrate on Recon and spotting.

Is it ok to put an as-I-go AAR here?

Game version is [I'm going to have to spell it as 'it' seems to think I'm posting a telephone number!] One.Seven.ElevenTwentyFour Dec25th 2014 Twelve.Fifty-Nine.Eleven (I bought and downloaded the game in May 2017)

I play with all realism options at default with +/- 15 day variability, all game options ON except for auto sub ops (I like to send them where I want them to go! Is that unreasonable?), with 1 day per turn and difficulty at historical. Display options are set at 0.5 seconds message delay nowadays, with all combat animations, hexgrid and hexside details On. I started at 2.5 seconds delay but know how to change the delay in game if necessary.

Ok, off I go. Thanks again.

ORIGINAL: Energisteron



Is it ok to put an as-I-go AAR here?

Pretty much anything is allowed save profanity, discussion of religion or politics. Any AAR is worthy of welcome and likely to draw appropriate comments. Go for it!

As a matter of fact, visit one of my AARs and make some sort of comment, worry not how crass or crude it might seem. You can even go to one of them and just say "Boo"!

ORIGINAL: Energisteron


Thank you for these additional comments and all the encouragement.

I've gleaned a lot from this and intend starting up the hypothetical Aleutians campaign for a change. This seems to have no CVs but I'll see how it goes. I'm going to concentrate on Recon and spotting.

Is it ok to put an as-I-go AAR here?

Game version is [I'm going to have to spell it as 'it' seems to think I'm posting a telephone number!] One.Seven.ElevenTwentyFour Dec25th 2014 Twelve.Fifty-Nine.Eleven (I bought and downloaded the game in May 2017)

I play with all realism options at default with +/- 15 day variability, all game options ON except for auto sub ops (I like to send them where I want them to go! Is that unreasonable?), with 1 day per turn and difficulty at historical. Display options are set at 0.5 seconds message delay nowadays, with all combat animations, hexgrid and hexside details On. I started at 2.5 seconds delay but know how to change the delay in game if necessary.

Ok, off I go. Thanks again.

Looks like you are good to go with your setup.

This game is different from other naval games you have played.
This game is not a casual “point and shoot” game it is all “point” with the game doing the shooting.

You are going to have to study to be good at it. You need to focus on the game mechanics at first.
Like any good mechanic you need to be able to look at a task force or air group and know within
Seconds if it is configured correctly for the situation it is in.

That is the way it works in the real world with real naval commanders.
The best naval commanders have excellent “point” skills.
That ability is what makes this such a great game.

Those skills take time but you will get it if you study.

Play and then read the manual cover to cover. Play and read, Play and read.

Learn to search the forum. Every question has been asked before. Many of the plank holders
Of this game are no longer with us but they can still talk to you out of the past. Most of it is
Down in black and white if you look for it.

Here are a few links to get you started and they cover all of your questions:
fb.asp?m=3281823

The manual and forum can help you but you are going to have to move mountains on your own.

ORIGINAL: Energisteron
Is it ok to put an as-I-go AAR here?

Go ahead. I'll be reading. I would also love to see an AAR of your eventual first PBEM. I'll even be your opponent as Japan once AcePylut teaches me the lessons of total war. [:D]