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To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:42 pm
by AcePylut
So after many failed attempts at getting a PBEM past '42 as the Allies - I guess I'll try the Empire of the Sun... I'll go against the AI to get the hang of it, but I'll run it as if I'm playing against a real player (i.e. I won't empty out Manchuria's arty and aa and extra Inf units without paying PP). I know next to zero when it comes to the economy, so I'll be asking for assistance.
This will be a slow slog before I even press "end turn" for the first turn... and I'll have tons of questions.
I read Mike Solli's AAR, and am following his lead with what to do with the transport ships and their conversions.
This alone, is worth ten thousand dollars:
fb.asp?m=2960229
The 51 xAPs will be used to move LCUs from the Home Islands to a hub near where the LCU destination will be. They will not be used in combat (hopefully). Given this, I do not see the need for many -t conversions.
Here's my intent on the xAK(L)s by class:
AK Yusen-S (10) - They're already AKs. They will remain AKs.
xAK Lima (46) - 6 will convert to AKV and 7 will convert to AKE leaving 33. Initially, they will form 3x TFs of 10 + 3 Ansyu-C PB. Two will be at Pt. Arthur and one at Shanghai. They will send resources to Japan and the Shanghai TF will move supply to China as needed. Hopefully, the Pt. Arthur TFs will be reassigned when the flow out of Keijo and Fusan becomes adequate.
xAK Yusen-N (56) - These are nice 15 kt cargos that have 300 liquid capacity. They will be used to haul between major ports. I'm not sure where I'll use them yet.
xAK Yusen-A (7) - Convert to AK.
xAK Kyushu (32) - These are the nice 18 kt cargos that have 300 liquid capacity. They are allocated to move resources/oil from Singapore to Takao.
xAK Aden (189) - These are the workhorses that will move resources/supply (and if needed, fuel) between major ports. Unfortunately, with their large capacity, they take a long time to load so they are relatively slow. Couple that with their 12 kt speed and it takes forever to get them somewhere and unloaded. We're stuck with a lot of them so they'll be used for normal movement of stuff and it'll just take more of them. *Sigh*
xAK Husimi (25) - Six will convert to AR and the remaining 19 to AK. There just aren't enough of them to go around.
xAK Akasi (57) - Four will convert to AD and the rest will be used between medium sized ports.
xAK Ehime (58) - Eleven (at least) will convert to AG and the remainder will be used between medium sized ports.
xAK Toho (53) - I like these guys. They aren't too big and their 14 kt speed makes them relatively quick. I'll use them in TFs of 10 ships to haul resources (and fuel if needed) between Taihoku and Kagoshima.
xAK Std-C (17) - All of this class will be converted to TKs. Lots more are in the reinforcement queue.
xAK Ansyu-C (54) - They will all be converted to PBs. With the 52 that start the war as PBs, I'll have over 100 of them. I suspect I'll need them. They have nice endurance (6000) and make nice ASW TFs as well as convoy escorts for 12 and 14 kt TFs. Their only down side (aside from their horrible starting experience levels) is that they are relatively large (2980 tons).
xAK Gozan (58) - This is the smallest of the xAK classes. Their slow speed (10 kts) is, in my opinion, countered by their low tonnage (2375 tons). This allows them to be used in small ports. I'm planning on using them on the Fusan-Fukuoka and Toyohara-Wakkani routes to move resources.
xAKL Miyati (59) - The largest of the xAKLs, they will haul resources for the most part. Right now I have 5 TFs of 5 Miyatis and 2 Kiso PBs to move resources from the 5 resource producing islands south of the Philippines to Naga. I haven't figured out the rest but you can count on it being something similar somewhere else.
xAKL Kasu-D (46) - These are my favorite xAKL class because of they are "blessed" with being small and having a 12 kt speed. Right now I have half of them allocated to the resource run between Nauru/Ocean Island and Truk. They would make "fast" cargos useful in moving troops to front line locations, although I don't think they'll last long in that capacity.
xAKL Daigen (68) - These are the smallest "useful" cargo ships. With only a 10 kt speed, and a capacity of 125 troops/1570 cargo, they will be used to move small quantities of troops and/or supplies to small garrisons here and there, preferably not near enemy air power. I see them used in the southern SRA in that capacity.
xAKL Kiso-E (69) - My intent is to convert them to ACM (40) and PB (29). With the 31 existing, I'll have 60 PBs. I like them because they have an endurance of 4000 and have 3 DC racks. Their 11 kt speed will pretty much force them to escort the multitude of 10 kt cargos. I really wish it was 12 kts. Ah well....
xAKL To'su (37) - My intent is to convert them to ACM (17) and PB (20). With the 34 existing, I'll have 54 PBs. They're blessed with a 12 kt speed but their small endurance of 1700 reduces their capabilities.
Overall, I'll have 220 PBs (106 Ansyu-C, 60 Kiso-E and 54 To'su). With luck, they'll last long enough to get the nice escorts later in the war to replace them.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:10 pm
by Aurorus
In general, Mike's guide is pretty good, though the intricacies of the Japanese economy have changed some over the years: such as limited resource transport to the most fuel-efficient ships in terms of cargo capacity.
You will find that the Adens and Limas are sufficient for resource transport, I suspect. I am playing a game now with reduced cargo capacity, and these are sufficient.
Because I have 2 DBB games going now, I forget what options are available for stock conversions. One thing that you will find, however, is that you have insufficient troop transport capabilities to move your forces with speed in the early going (which is essential to good Japanese play). I recommend converting the Kyushus, for example, to troop space. Also, many of the xAKs, such as the Yusen Ns, convert to military AKs in the April-June period. This is when the amphibious bonus expires, and probably you will find it helpful to convert many of these to military AKs.
Other Yusens can be used to move oil and resources simultaneously from Korea as they are rather fuel efficient (which is another good reason to convert them to military AKs and use them to shuttle troops around in rear areas).
If I remember correctly, in stock, there are sufficient Kisos to fill out your ACMs needs. All of the Tosu can be converted to PBs. (In DBB, I find that I need more ACMs and must convert some Tosus to ACMs).
Generally speaking, it is a good idea to shut off further merchant ship production (except for oilers, tankers, and CVEs) and eventually idle some of your merchant shipyards to conserve heavy industry for air, vehicle, armament, naval, and engine production.
Be sure that you have a sufficient number of AKEs, including a few Limas as Mike recommends. It is incorrect, BTW, that an AKE can only re-arm devices with an ammunition load less than or equal to their cargo capacity. I just re-armed the main guns on the BB Ise from a 3000-capacity AKE. I re-armed Nagato and Mutsu from Husima class AKE just the other day.
I also recommend more than 4 ADs. You will need ADs in many places: 10 or 12.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:20 pm
by Aurorus
I just reviewed the Japanese DDs in my AAR for my game against Apbarog. I recommend converting the Wakatakes to APDs and retaining the rest of the DD force as DDs. If you are interested, see the notes in my AAR on DDs and CS.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:58 pm
by geofflambert
From n01487477
Hi guys -
I'm putting together a document to help new players get to grips with the Japanese economic system. I think some of it is very verbose and technical. Probably a huge turn off, which is not what I wanted.
Maybe some of it needs culling or rewriting. Anyway, it isn't final yet. And when it is, I hope that the checklist idea that I've just started will be all that most need to get something started. The rest of it could be read at one's pleasure for understanding.
Doc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sb4koy01abdrb ... t.doc?dl=0
Pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q20xhgtodwb0k ... t.pdf?dl=0
Comments and suggestions welcome. Corrections too. I know we all do things slightly differently. Please take this in the spirit that I offer it. A guide for beginners. (Even if it needs to have a re-write to become one)
Regards,
[edit] Noted that the pic's were a bit bad so re-did them. The Pdf looks better than the doc version.
[edit] Just updated the doc a bit... will continue to update ...
[update] Save file - completed orders up till the airframe sequence
Scen 1, R&D realistic
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae005.pws
Airframes complete
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae006.pws
< Message edited by n01487477 -- 5/3/2017 7:30:42 AM >
_____________________________
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:02 pm
by geofflambert
Also open Numdydar's attachment here:
tm.asp?m=3329605&mpage=1&key=
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:44 pm
by AcePylut
Next stop- Aircraft Research. Thanks to my question on the main forum, I'm going for the A7M Sam, the George (1st model), and one of the Ki-61 Tony's (I think the c model, I'll have to look). Besides fighters, are there any other specific planes I should research (i.e. DB's, Bombers, transports, etc.) or should I change all my R&D factories to researching fighters?
I figure fighters, since that's what I'll need to "slow" the Allied tide.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:49 pm
by AcePylut
Well this is good to know....
Here we see we have 5 R&D factories producing A6M5s. All of these have damaged factories, which is
not a good thing. Why? Unlike production factories, R&D factories produce ‘points’ which are used to
accelerate the availability date of the plane. UNLESS ALL R&D FACTORIES ARE FULLY REPAIRED, THEY
WLL PRODUCE ZERO POINTS TOWARD ACCELERATION. This cannot be stressed enough.
The 7(2) factory on the second line is the closest to actually helping to accelerate the availability date
since it has only two more factories to be repaired. This is one of the major shocks as playing as Japan is
the realization that there will be no ’45 planes in ’43. However, it is entirely possible, to get planes six
months earlier than historical (or even earlier) though the proper use of R&D. This is done by
understanding the Japanese upgrade paths for planes.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:12 pm
by Lowpe
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
From n01487477
Hi guys -
I'm putting together a document to help new players get to grips with the Japanese economic system. I think some of it is very verbose and technical. Probably a huge turn off, which is not what I wanted.
Maybe some of it needs culling or rewriting. Anyway, it isn't final yet. And when it is, I hope that the checklist idea that I've just started will be all that most need to get something started. The rest of it could be read at one's pleasure for understanding.
Doc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sb4koy01abdrb ... t.doc?dl=0
Pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q20xhgtodwb0k ... t.pdf?dl=0
Comments and suggestions welcome. Corrections too. I know we all do things slightly differently. Please take this in the spirit that I offer it. A guide for beginners. (Even if it needs to have a re-write to become one)
Regards,
[edit] Noted that the pic's were a bit bad so re-did them. The Pdf looks better than the doc version.
[edit] Just updated the doc a bit... will continue to update ...
[update] Save file - completed orders up till the airframe sequence
Scen 1, R&D realistic
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae005.pws
Airframes complete
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae006.pws
< Message edited by n01487477 -- 5/3/2017 7:30:42 AM >
_____________________________
How much input do you want? Will I hurt a Gorn's feelings by giving lots? Do you have feelings?
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:12 pm
by MakeeLearn
ORIGINAL: AcePylut
Well this is good to know....
Here we see we have 5 R&D factories producing A6M5s. All of these have damaged factories, which is
not a good thing. Why? Unlike production factories, R&D factories produce ‘points’ which are used to
accelerate the availability date of the plane. UNLESS ALL R&D FACTORIES ARE FULLY REPAIRED, THEY
WLL PRODUCE ZERO POINTS TOWARD ACCELERATION. This cannot be stressed enough.
The 7(2) factory on the second line is the closest to actually helping to accelerate the availability date
since it has only two more factories to be repaired. This is one of the major shocks as playing as Japan is
the realization that there will be no ’45 planes in ’43. However, it is entirely possible, to get planes six
months earlier than historical (or even earlier) though the proper use of R&D. This is done by
understanding the Japanese upgrade paths for planes.
And having a pool of >500 engines for a R&D plane will accelerate its online date.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:59 pm
by AcePylut
So can't just turn all factories to Georges... gotta plan it out a little better lol. Dang. The thing with the Jap economy, is that there isn't any other game that has an economy similar to WitP.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:48 pm
by AcePylut
Ok... so here's what I think I've figured out about plane research (thanks for those links btw - it helps make a little sense out of this)....
A R&D factory will only produce research points if all the factories are repaired. Thus, a factory size 10 but with (1) point damaged will produce nothing.
That point will not repair if the plane being researched is more than 2 years out. If it's between 1 and 2 years out, the point has a small chance of repairing. If the plane is less than 1 year out, it has a better chance of repairing that broken point.
Right?
Next, a 10 point factory, fully repaired, will produce approximately 10 research points a month. For ease of math, we'll say 10 per month.
It takes 100 research points to bring a plane forward a month. So, if this is the only R&D factory, it will take 10 months to bring the plane forward 1 month. (10 R&D points per month * 10 months = 100 R&D points which brings a plane forward 1 month)
Despite all this, the maximum amount of research points I can get is coded at 1 per day - we'll say 30 per month. So if I have 50 fully repaired R&D factories, I don't get 50 points a month, I only get 30 points a month. So at best, it will take 3.33 months to bring a plane forward 1 month (30 points per month * 3.33 months = 100 points which brings the plane forward 1 month)
Is any of that wrong? If so, what's wrong about it?
Next - if I have 500 more engines of that plane type stocked, I get an additional R&D point per day, well say 30 per month.
So, if I am maxed out on R&D factories (30 points per month) and engines (30 points per month), I can bring a plane forward one month every 1.66 months of game time (30 R&D factory points per month + 30 engine points per month = 60 R&D points per month. 60 points * 1.66 months = 100 R&D points to bring a plane forward per month).
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:54 pm
by AcePylut
So the key to bringing a plane forward as quickly as possible, is to have at least 500 of that plane's engines in stock AND have 30 R&D factories fully repaired. Then I bring the plane forward by 1 month, every 1.66 months of gametime.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:45 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
From n01487477
Hi guys -
I'm putting together a document to help new players get to grips with the Japanese economic system. I think some of it is very verbose and technical. Probably a huge turn off, which is not what I wanted.
Maybe some of it needs culling or rewriting. Anyway, it isn't final yet. And when it is, I hope that the checklist idea that I've just started will be all that most need to get something started. The rest of it could be read at one's pleasure for understanding.
Doc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sb4koy01abdrb ... t.doc?dl=0
Pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q20xhgtodwb0k ... t.pdf?dl=0
Comments and suggestions welcome. Corrections too. I know we all do things slightly differently. Please take this in the spirit that I offer it. A guide for beginners. (Even if it needs to have a re-write to become one)
Regards,
[edit] Noted that the pic's were a bit bad so re-did them. The Pdf looks better than the doc version.
[edit] Just updated the doc a bit... will continue to update ...
[update] Save file - completed orders up till the airframe sequence
Scen 1, R&D realistic
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae005.pws
Airframes complete
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17642556/wpae006.pws
< Message edited by n01487477 -- 5/3/2017 7:30:42 AM >
_____________________________
How much input do you want? Will I hurt a Gorn's feelings by giving lots? Do you have feelings?
The only feelings gorns have is when you tickle their ventral regions with chicken feathers.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:55 pm
by PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: AcePylut
So the key to bringing a plane forward as quickly as possible, is to have at least 500 of that plane's engines in stock AND have 30 R&D factories fully repaired. Then I bring the plane forward by 1 month, every 1.66 months of gametime.
You need to read up on the probabilities of repairing a factory. understanding this is crucial to creating an effective RnD plan.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:02 am
by AcePylut
This is about what I figured out - I didn't see any set percentages or specific numbers behind this:
A damaged R&D will not repair if the plane being researched is more than 2 years out. If it's between 1 and 2 years out, the point has a small chance of repairing. If the plane is less than 1 year out, it has a better chance of repairing that broken point.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:03 am
by Lowpe
ORIGINAL: AcePylut
This is about what I figured out - I didn't see any set percentages or specific numbers behind this:
A damaged R&D will not repair if the plane being researched is more than 2 years out. If it's between 1 and 2 years out, the point has a small chance of repairing. If the plane is less than 1 year out, it has a better chance of repairing that broken point.
Wrong, you can have planes repaired 4 and 5 points out of 30 that are due in 1946 within 3 months of Dec 7, 1941. Of course the average repair (say 2 standard deviations) is probably 0-1-2 during that time frame.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:52 pm
by fcharton
ORIGINAL: AcePylut
This is about what I figured out - I didn't see any set percentages or specific numbers behind this:
A damaged R&D will not repair if the plane being researched is more than 2 years out. If it's between 1 and 2 years out, the point has a small chance of repairing. If the plane is less than 1 year out, it has a better chance of repairing that broken point.
Here is what I had in my notes...
Once fully repaired, a size 30 factory produces one research point per day, two if you have the engine bonus. 30 is the size you want : over 30, they do not contribute more, below, they contribute much less. 100 research points advance the model by one month.
Damaged factories have a probability of repairing every day. If N is the number of days left until the model is available, the probability is (about?) 1/N. Up to statistical fluctuations, this is independent of the number of factories you repair. Repairing 30 factories takes as much time as repairing 10.
On average, if the model is N days away, the factories should be repaired by 0.63 N, and you have 0.37N days left to advance the model. This means the sooner you begin repair, the better.
You can summarize all this into one formula. If N is the number of days before the model is available, and U is the number of size 30 (damaged) factories you assign to this model, you should get a 0.37NU/(50+30U) month advance with the engine bonus, and 0.37NU/(100+30U) without.
One important way to speed research is to use upgrade paths. A repaired factory can be upgraded to the next model in the research path at no damage. This mean that over long paths (zero, oscar...), you should research the earliest model, so that your factories repair faster, and then upgrade to the later ones, which you will advance significantly. As a result, there is a trade-off between brand new designs, that you have to research early, and won't advance a lot, and late models of old designs, where a lot can be gained.
All of this is constrained by the number of research factories : you only have so many sites, and once you update one to production, you can't go back (but you get the new model produced at once). Ideally, you should plan very early in the game what you want to research, and when you turn those factories to actual production.
And of course, it also depends on whether you're playing PDU on or off. In the latter case, it is quite possible for a model to be available, but but you have to wait for the squadrons to arrive.
Hope this helps,
Francois
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:10 pm
by Cap Mandrake
Francois;
I'll send you what we did in our game and then just do the opposite. [:)]
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:47 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: AcePylut
So the key to bringing a plane forward as quickly as possible, is to have at least 500 of that plane's engines in stock AND have 30 R&D factories fully repaired. Then I bring the plane forward by 1 month, every 1.66 months of gametime.
You're on the right track with your first sentence. Also consider the benefit of *multiple* fully repaired factories of size 30 researching. Plus the engine reservoir. Don't forget a surplus of supply at the factory hex in question too. You won't advance "repair" the R&D factories if you can't provide sufficient supply to do so.
Your calculation is in the right ballpark. I think. You need *approximately* 100 research points to advance. Your engine surplus will double the percentage that you create a research point. So, a fully repaired size 30 R&D factory will (on average) produce 30 research points a month. Needing 3.3 months to advance one month. Half that if the engine bonus ~ 1.66 months.
RE: To the Dark Side (Economic and Research Help Req'd)
Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:14 am
by AcePylut
Ok thanks all, so far...
Question: If I decide to not produce a certain - lets say the Jack fighter, or it's engine (whatever it is)....
And a squadron of Jacks are set to arrive... but I have no Jacks or their engines in the pool... will that squadron arrive with a full compliment of Jacks, or does it arrive with "0" planes?