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Two questions --

Has anyone had battles in their PBEM games that could be described as close to what happened in these battles?

Also, even though I did my thesis on the Pacific War, I have yet to find a really GOOD account of what happened during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Most books and articles only spend a few paragraphs or a page on it. Even the largest entry on the battle I've found, from John Costello, does'nt really explain the battle in a thorugh way.

I'd love to find out how the heck the American fleet, outgunned and outnumbered, put into stupid moves to waste their radar advantage and a good firing position, having both commanders killed in the opening minutes of the battle (I never could find who TOOK command of the fleet after that), managed to force the Japanese to flee without having every ship blasted out from under them.

AND somehow the San Fran did enough damage to the Hiei to cripple the battleship so land/carrier airplanes could finish her off the next day -- I've NEVER seen my 8-inch guns do any real damage to a battleship in UV battles.

I also admit I have to wonder, during the second battle, how the heck the Washington was able to blast apart the Kirashima, hit some other Japanese ships as well, and fall back while avoiding all those destroyer-fired torpedos! How the heck could the Japanese MISS a huge target like that, especily consdering how deadly the Long Lance is?

Midway may have been the battle that doomed Japan, but I've always argued that the naval battles of Guadalcanal saved the American offensive and the beach head. Too bad I have yet to find out more info on the battles.

It's obvious that it has to do with that tiny but often overlooked miracle of the WW2 naval battlefield, the potato (aka: spud, flying hash brown, war-winner). Please refer to the "Why is THIS STILL not MODELED?!?!?!?!" thread for futher enlightenment on this misunderstood period of naval warfare.

(Sorry, I'm no help at all...but the thread was quite entertaining.)

The closest thing so far that has happened to me, as Aillied player , that comes close to the first battle of GC is the following, which was only posted on the "Aussie Rematch" AAR thread.
The battle was not at ironbottom sound but at Vanua Lava.

The confusion that my naval forces experianced must go close to what happened in the real battle at GC.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/29/42

Weather: Clear

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

IJN LONG LANCE ATTACK RULES!!!

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 10
CA Haguro, Shell hits 1
CA Aoba
CL Naka, Shell hits 8
CL Isuzu
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 1
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 1
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 9, on fire
DD Takanami, Shell hits 2
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 9, on fire

Allied Ships
CL Leander, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL St. Louis, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Nashville, Shell hits 18, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Gwin, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk before US fires anything.
DD McCall, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Cummings, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Case, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
DD Conyngham, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Perkins
DD Tucker, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Porter, Shell hits 1
DD Warramunga, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 2
CA Haguro, Shell hits 1
CA Aoba, Shell hits 1
CL Naka
CL Isuzu
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 2
DD Makigumo, on fire
DD Takanami
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL St. Louis, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CL Nashville, and is sunk
DD McCall, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Cummings, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Case, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Perkins, Shell hits 1
DD Tucker, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Porter
DD Warramunga, Shell hits 6, and is sunk


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Haguro
CA Aoba
CL Naka
CL Isuzu
DD Akitsuki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yugumo
DD Makigumo, on fire
DD Takanami
DD Kuroshio, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
PT 40, Shell hits 21, heavy damage
PT 44, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
PT 107, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
PT 112
PT 114
PT 123
PT 120
PT 122


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 3
CA Haguro, Shell hits 3
CA Aoba, Shell hits 5, on fire
CL Naka
CL Isuzu, Shell hits 4
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Takanami
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Canberra, Shell hits 4
CL Phoenix
DD Hughes
DD Hammann, Shell hits 8, on fire
DD Mustin, Shell hits 3, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Haguro, Shell hits 7, on fire
CA Aoba, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Naka, Shell hits 2
CL Isuzu
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yugumo, on fire, heavy damage
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
DD Takanami, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Northampton, on fire, heavy damage
CA Canberra, Shell hits 5, on fire
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 4
DD Hughes, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Hammann, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
DD Mustin, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
CA Haguro, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Aoba, Shell hits 21, on fire
CL Naka, Shell hits 22, on fire, heavy damage
CL Isuzu, Shell hits 7
DD Akitsuki, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Takanami, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Kuroshio, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Pensacola, Shell hits 25, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 2
CA Quincy, Shell hits 4, on fire
CL Honolulu, Shell hits 1
DD Blue, Shell hits 2
DD Jarvis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Vanua Lava at 53,49

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Haguro, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CA Aoba, Shell hits 27, on fire, heavy damage
CL Naka, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
CL Isuzu, Shell hits 4
DD Akitsuki, and is sunk
DD Yugumo, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Takanami, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kuroshio, Shell hits 11, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Pensacola, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
CA San Francisco
CA Quincy, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Honolulu, Shell hits 1
DD Blue, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Jarvis, Shell hits 2, on fire


2 Cls, a big CA (pensacola) and 8 dds appeared on the enemy sunk list, while there is another bunch of badly damaged ships in a thunderstorm 5 hexes (guessing) from Luganville. I lost 2 small CAs, a cl, and 4 DDs (most of which had to be scuttled after the following air raid caught them). Thunderstorms and the bad weather in this game and all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 52,49


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
SBD Dauntless x 21


no losses

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Aoba, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Naka, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 52,49


Allied aircraft
Hudson x 7


no losses

Japanese Ships
DD Takanami, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 6000 feet
3 x Hudson at 6000 feet

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Ground combat at Wewak

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 516 troops, 0 guns, 26 vehicles

Defending force 110 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Next turn there will be more tankettes to squash this insane invasion. Happy that last turn the S-46 copped 2 out of 16 depth charges (go APDs!).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunk ship list has been decidedly in my favour so far. Bombing wise Raver's raids at PM the last few turns ahve cost him half a dozen planes, and a whole bunch of damaged ships (more AA on the way let me tell you!) but he has also caught a couple of zeroes on the ground, and shut PM down for about a week.

Actually, the spud locker on Atlanta cracked open after she was hit by a long lance, spewing spuds, sea water, and fuel oil through several compartments. Made for quite a mess.

I think the out come from the US side was hardly something to celebrate over. Lots a very badly damaged ships. On the other hand, it would seem that it could have been much worse except the engagement was fought at such close range that the Jap battle wagons could not depress their main guns enough to score water line hits on the American ships. I believe some of the main damage to the Hei was caused by fires. But what really did her in was the loss of her rudder. She could have probably have made an escape if she had not lost her rudder.

How the heck could the Japanese MISS a huge target like that, especily consdering how deadly the Long Lance is?

I dont have a source readily available to back this up, but I seem to recall reading that one problem the Japanese had with the Long Lance was their tendency to use it at extreme or maximum range. This reduced their ability to get hits. Then again, I think it was the attack on the Wasp where they scored 3 out of 6 torpedo hits, followed by 2 more out of the 6 hitting nearby allied ships.

Soulblazer,

Try these links:

Close Encounters: The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal

Major Battles Of World War Two - Guadalcanal Campaign: The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal

USS Laffey, DD 459, Benson - (Bristol) class destroyer

DECISIVE HALT 1942: GUADALCANAL AND IMPLICATIONS FOR AMERICAN MILITARY STRATEGY IN THE 21 ST CENTURY

Originally posted by SoulBlazer
Two questions --


AND somehow the San Fran did enough damage to the Hiei to cripple the battleship so land/carrier airplanes could finish her off the next day -- I've NEVER seen my 8-inch guns do any real damage to a battleship in UV battles.

Don't forget Hiei was a battlecruiser that was essentially re-classified as a battleship, but with all the same problems of the Brit battlecruisers that get hit so bad at Jutland.

And as UV shows, a ship that doesn't get away from LBA at night is in real trouble the next day - one of the "real" Japanese battleships might have faired much better in the battle and gotten away.

Dave Baranyi

Originally posted by SoulBlazer

Also, even though I did my thesis on the Pacific War, I have yet to find a really GOOD account of what happened during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Most books and articles only spend a few paragraphs or a page on it. Even the largest entry on the battle I've found, from John Costello, does'nt really explain the battle in a thorugh way.

Have you tried this one:

Eric Hammel: Guadalcanal. Decision at Sea. The Naval Battle of Guadalcanal November 13-15, 1942. Pacifica Press, Pacifica, CA 1988. 444 pages. ISBN 0-517-56952-3.

I like the book and think it is a solid study, but I'm hardly an expert on this subject.

HI Soulblazer
just going from memory here
but wasn't part of the fact that the IJN, did not know or believe there were BB's in the area and thought they had a CA in front of them and were all locked on and trying to fire at the other BB when the Washington opened up ?

one hassle I have with the game or the system, is the poor exe levels of the US/Allied Sailors, they were not poorly trained or lacking in skill, they were hampered by the leadership (most of them had be trained and bought up in years of safety first, instead of combat action)

one of the myths of the war is about the great IJN lookouts, how they could spot a Allied ship at the same range as the Allied radar could

that was not the case or even close to it, the hassle was, once a ship was picked up by radar, the delay in giving the command to fire, what ship is it, is it our ship, are you sure that is not a transport out there, while the IJN were told, there are no friendly to the north or north east of us, a lookout would see a ship and scream, and with in minutes the rounds were flying

(which it is funny, one of the big battles losses, the IJN thought they were mixed in with there other fleet and held fire, the commander being killed, lieing on the deck, believe his own ships had opened fire on him by mistake)

and I believe it is this battle, that they worked on what to do if they ran into the IJN, they were order to fire on contact, the DD's were to turn and charge, fire there trops and get out of the way,anything to the flank was to be open game, fire at will, when contact happened, they reported it, and then waiting while the commander made up his mind what they should do, and gave away the chance they had

then again, that could of been a movie, my mem is not what it used to be

HARD_Sarge

Originally posted by ADavidB
Don't forget Hiei was a battlecruiser that was essentially re-classified as a battleship, but with all the same problems of the Brit battlecruisers that get hit so bad at Jutland.

And as UV shows, a ship that doesn't get away from LBA at night is in real trouble the next day - one of the "real" Japanese battleships might have faired much better in the battle and gotten away.

Dave Baranyi

possibly. An achillies heel of the Kongo class was that their steering gear was not as well protected as a more modern battleship. The compartment itself though was not actually penetrated but was beset by progressive flooding from a near impact. Other than that the Hiei was essentially unharmed save for some serious cosmetic surgury on her upper works courtasy of numerous point blank range 5 inch incendiary fire. One estimate was that she was struck no less than 70 times during the battle but her citidel remained intact throughout. Fires and disruptions to her command control systems in the superstructure hindered her effectiveness in the battle as well as the Japanese admiral's ability to control his fleet.

Had it not been for Cactus, she would have survived. Had it not been for the one unfortunate hit in her vulnerable stern, she could have retired at speed. She was certainly not "crippled" by 8 inch fire in the true sense since she weathered all but one unlucky hit quite well and remained operational save for the flooded steering compartment which was repairable at sea.

All in all Hiei's experience emphasised the danger of committing battleships to night-time runs in restricted waters which greatly compromises their prime asset, which is the ability to exert crushing stand-off firepower while also maximizing their protective qualities.

Originally posted by SoulBlazer

Also, even though I did my thesis on the Pacific War, I have yet to find a really GOOD account of what happened during the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Most books and articles only spend a few paragraphs or a page on it. Even the largest entry on the battle I've found, from John Costello, does'nt really explain the battle in a thorugh way.

Addition to my earlier post:

D'oh, how could I have missed that one, with all 15 volumes being stacked beside my bed: S.E. Morison's History of US Naval Operations in WWII, volume V: The Struggle for Guadalcanal, devotes 30+ pages on the 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.
Not sure either if this will qualify as a GOOD account in your eyes. Morison describes what happened, but doesn't really explain what went wrong and why.

I think Hammel did a better job to explain why "the American fleet, outgunned and outnumbered, put into stupid moves to waste their radar advantage and a good firing position, having both commanders killed in the opening minutes of the battle". IIRC he attributes this to a) the makeshift character of the US force with ships from two different TFs and belonging to different divisions and squadrons thrown together and not used to operate as a team, b) the inexperience of RAdm Callaghan, who was on his first combat assignment as Admiral, having served as Ghormley's Chief of Staff before. Hammel charges him with 'lack of battle awareness', hesitation and lack of understanding for the benefits of radar technology. Hammel claims Gallaghan did chose San Francisco (SC radar) as flagship instead of Helena with the SG set because he had been San Fs skipper earlier. His composition of force also confirms his lack of 'radar awareness' (my words), with the four ships with SG radars put in the middle or very rear of the column. Furthermore, when Helena's radar registered on Abe's force, the message had to be relayed via the single-channel TBS radio system, which became totally overburdened as new radar contacts, visual sightings, orders and questions from several ships had to be relayed simultaneously. In the end Callaghan became confused about the various contacts and wasn't sure which ships were his own and which ones the enemy's. Therefore he was hesitant to order 'commence firing'. Had Callaghan been on Helena, he might have seen for himself on the SG screen what was going on.

Hammel has a lot more to say about this, but my memory is leaky.

Originally posted by SoulBlazer
having both commanders killed in the opening minutes of the battle (I never could find who TOOK command of the fleet after that)

No one took command after both Admirals were killed until the battle was over, each ship was on its own in a general melee. On flagship San Francisco LCdr Bruce McCandless, IIRC the seventh in the chain of command, was senior surviving officer on the bridge, assumed command of the vessel and steered her clear of the battle. Helena followed and her skipper Capt Gib Hoover requested instructions from RAdm Callaghan. Learning that Callaghan was dead and a LCdr was acting captain of San F, Hoover as senior naval officer present assumed command of the retiring ships (San F, Helena, Juneau, Sterret, O'Bannon, Fletcher). The ships that were unable to move and were left behind in Ironbottom Sound (Portland, Atlanta, Aaron Ward) came under command of Capt Laurence DuBose, skipper of Portland and senior naval officer in that area.

Hope this helps.

The myth of Japanes night spotting ability is not a myth at all. Read the accounts of the surface actions. Virtually in every action within the 1942 time frame, Japanese surface ships spotted American ships at the same time or before Allies surface radar did the same.

The reasons are simple. Radar was not that good and the Allies were just not that experienced in using it. American night spotting doctrine and experience was just not as good as the Japanese. There is no myth here. They were better trained.


Although American ships were handicapped by institutional and doctrinal defects as well as equipment deficiencies, the plain fact of the matter is that Japanese surface units were better trained from top to bottom. Aggressive pre-war training was a factor that can not be denied. It was this more than anything else that contributed to the night naval defeats of 1942.

One only needs to refer to Nimitz's after action assessment of the battle of Tassafaronga-where a far superior Allied TF was trashed by a smaller Japanese force of DDs. "He prescribed a remedy of "training, training and MORE TRAINING." I really can't argue with Chester.

I can't find much fault with the experience rating of American ships assigned by the designers. Pretty much seems right on the money.

The fun part is watching it go up after catching a Japanese TF of APs napping!! :-0

sorry but from what I have read, the radar picked up the other ships, it was the lag between the man in charge, making up his mind if they were the bad guys, or the good guys, if we should fire or if we should wait, that caused the delays, the IJN did not delay when they spotted something, they fired

plus in most of the early battes the IJN knew that there was nobody in front of them or to this side or that, the US/Allied were never sure, mixed commands, different commanders

HARD_Sarge

Believe it or not sarge but that was not always the case. Third Guadalcanal was a prime example. The lag and training issues were not prevalent there because Lee was radar-conversant and his flagship was (for once) the ship that had the SG.

And according to Frank Black, the Japanese still spotted American warships first

Ironically this time it was on the Japanese side that flub ups happened as Kondo vacilitated and worse, refused to believe reports that he faced battlewagons.

Part of the reason was that even SG wasn't immune to interference from land masses.....something i hope will be better represented in WitP.

Thanks for all the information, guys. Seems like we should be reconizing Lee as one of the better commanders who fought in the Pacific War.

I remember reading a book called something like "Bloody Friday off Guadalcanal" that covered the friday the 13th battle. For the 2nd battle, there is a book on the USS Washington that goes into nice detail about the battle and problems associated during it.