Matrix Games Forums

Last night I had a chance to play version 2.3 for a few too many hours and I'm quite happy with all the changes. Already the sub behavior is showing up nicely - I never liked having to shove "all" my subs into some port - and the US tac bombers are no longer "certain death in the skies" for Japanese TFs. This has been balanced out quite nicely because the US tac bombers can still do a number on ships that are at anchor.

These changes ought to make the Japanese side more competitive in more of the scenarios without having to make the settings too ahistoric. All-in-all, a great set of updates and a great job.

Thanks -

Dave Baranyi

Has anyone noticed a difference in effectiveness of Airocobras and Kittyhawks as CAP early on in scenario 17.
I have been playing scenario 17 as allies versus the ai and in pre 2.3 games the allied CAP in Port Moresby put up some sort of show though it was still tough.
Playing 3.2, ten allied planes are downed for each zero downed.
Don't think I've been playing any different but the results seem to favor the zero much more now.

Also, is there a command for setting CAP only?
Often I'd like to set CAP with no other mission to reduce fatigue.
However, if I set long range cap as mission and reduce the CAP from 100% it sets up a sweep mission and if I try escort as the mission the reserve cap flies with the bomber sorties, raising fatigue. Even if I set the escort destination to the hex I want protected the escort still fly to other destinations with the bombers.

Experience and Moral

It seems experience is the key, airgroups with low experience (less then 70) and moral come out on the short end of air battles. You really need to keep and eye on airgroups and rotate them out of PM to build up moral.

Allied level bomber seem to start making more hits once their experience is over 70.

Yes, experience, morale and fatigue play an important part.

I have been rotating CAP regularly, though it would be a lot easier if there was a CAP mission that could be set at say 40%.

Seems 2.3 zeroes are just deadly, Hard_Sarge posted the same observation one minute before my post.

Edit: Also, another thing I've noticed, after the fighters duke it out the attack on bombers is much reduced. Often the bombers are barely touched.
I've even seen a combat of twenty P39 CAP not intercept an unescorted Betty bombing raid.

Mike, those deadly zero's that start at Rabaul have skills in the 80+ range. Your poor P-39D/P-40E groups at PM have skills in the 50 range.

You are going to loose, it's a SURE thing.

Kinda falls in the catagory of giving your kid a brand new car the day they get their drivers licence. You could, but the car's survival rate is not very high

You are better off using these guys to Bomb the crap out of Morobe till they get some skills and fill in the units.

Also remember that even a poor skill pilot with low fatigue does well against a high skill pilot with high fatigue. Let 'em bomb you and get tired, then put all your rested cap up at once, then stand 'em all down ... you simply do not have the airforce to stop Japan in May '42. Need to be very selective about picking your fights.

The A6M2 while being not up for a match against second generation Allied planes, ruled the sky in early '42.

I can accept that the zoroes in 42 were better but I'd llike to see some statistics on what actually happened there (gonna go search the web after this post for some data).
If the 2.3 zeroes are here to stay I can see absolutely no chance of the allies holding PM. Heard it was very tough pre 2.3...now surely it is impossible.
No matter how fresh the allies are in PM they lose huge each Jap bombing run and they lose experienced pilots rapidly.

If the 2.3 zeroes are here to stay I can see absolutely no chance of the allies holding PM

Thats perfectly ok. Loosing PM does not constitute a Allied loss or a Japan win.

I think a lot of folks have been USA biased up until now, and reality is starting to kick in that in '42, the Allied player is hanging on by his fingernails at best.

Historically, Japan was kneecapped by losses at Midway and the Allied were still hurting. In the games we play, Japan is not hurting from a failed Midway so can bring her full might into this theater. Those first 74 turns of the game should be extremely bloody for the Americans, falling back all over the place, trading space for time prior to the arrival of the 1st Marines.

The Allies get to reverse the flood and come right on back, but not until late in '42.

Personally, I like this twist in patch events (Japan without Midway SHOULD be able to put the Allies on the ropes for 4-5 months!).

It's a different game, more like it should be IMHO

Originally posted by Mr.Frag
Thats perfectly ok. Loosing PM does not constitute a Allied loss or a Japan win.

I think a lot of folks have been USA biased up until now, and reality is starting to kick in that in '42, the Allied player is hanging on by his fingernails at best.

Historically, Japan was kneecapped by losses at Midway and the Allied were still hurting. In the games we play, Japan is not hurting from a failed Midway so can bring her full might into this theater. Those first 74 turns of the game should be extremely bloody for the Americans, falling back all over the place, trading space for time prior to the arrival of the 1st Marines.

The Allies get to reverse the flood and come right on back, but not until late in '42.

Personally, I like this twist in patch events (Japan without Midway SHOULD be able to put the Allies on the ropes for 4-5 months!).

It's a different game, more like it should be IMHO

Concur. Sc 17 offers a much better challenge now. I never really did like the artificial twist of the tail offered by sc 19.

I don't mind the changes -- after all, it was only Japan's decision to turn back at Coral Sea that prevented an invasion historically. I don't know whether the invasion would have been successful, but the TF definitely could have reached PM as the US forces were pretty badly beat up. In a way, these changes to UV make the game MORE close to historical -- the Japanese probably should have taken PM in real life, they just made a bad call (same thing at Midway).

Like they say, "I'd rather be lucky than good..."

Woof!

The Zeros are on fire now in my game.

I yearn for the days when I could trade 3 P-39s for 1 A6M2, 3 P-40s for 2 A6M2s, and 3 F4F-4s for 3 A6M2s.

Since the patch, I haven't won a single air battle. Some of this is going to be fatigue related, as the Zeros are so long ranged that I can't really threaten their home bases (yet), so they don't get tired doing CAP work, while my squadrons do.

I'm rotating, trying different altitudes, standing down, screaming at the screen- nothing's working.

Not complaining, Drex certainly deserves to have some fun at my expense, I've definitely had the upper hand until this point.

It makes for a different game, though. Geez those P-38s stockpile real slow. When does the Corsair start showing up?

Posted by HawaiiFiveO

It makes for a different game, though. Geez those P-38s stockpile real slow. When does the Corsair start showing up?

Unless the P-38s have good pilots, they'll still be outfought by the A6M3 with an expert pilot.

When the F4Us show up though. Doesn't matter how good a Zero pilot is.

Just finished a scen 17 game (allies vs AI japs) which had been played all through the beta test (for testing of course). The appearance of the F4Us destroyed a nicely balanced little air war that had raged for about 9 months.

They were sometimes killing at up to 30 to 1 against jap fighters while flying CAP over my forward bases. One F4U pilot was nearing 40 kills when the game ended (not bad for just over 6 months in play). Because they were not taking many losses for their kills, the F4U squadrons experience levels were all going into the 80s.

If only a PBEM jap player would throw himself against the Corsairs like that.

Well not to beat a dead horse

but again, my game is scen 14, so it is not May and the Allies are not holding on by there toenails

but air to air, there is no fight, if the Allies fight the Zero, they get shot down, the Cats are losing about 10 planes for every 3 they shoot down

the only reason it is not a JP run away, is the Zero's are losing 7 to 10 planes a day to OP losses

but on the other hand, Zero's can't fight bombers, 6 17's go to Rebual, 60 Zero's and 20 Ocsars and 6 17's bomb Rebaul

I have played 2 months now , top Marine unit has 27 kills, top Army unit is 7 (P-400 caught an betty raid) top Navy unit has 17 (again a Betty raid slipped in with out it's excourt) top Aussie has 10 (next has 2)

(Strange one of the 39 units on PM, 2nd day of the war, Mcgee shot down 5 Betties, a mate got another one, 2 months later, the unit still only has 6 kills, action is Heavier over Lunga way, but about once every 3 days a raid comes into PM)

and this is with IJN losing 2 CV's, 2 CVL's, 3 BB's 5 CA's to my CV's

Buna and Russell have fallen, Lunga is a size 6 base

finnally gave in and check the other side out, to see how off FOW was telling me what was going on, strange part, Shortland have 80 + Zero's, 20 Vals and 20 Rufes, Rebaul, around 100 Zero's, 25-30 Oscars and 6 Betties

but Truk has like 6 full strength Betty and Nell units and 2 other units with around 9 planes each ????????, why is the AI keeping it's bombers back, a 80 Zero, 80 Betty/Nell raid would sink almost my entire CV fleet that is chokeing his supply line

HARD_Sarge

well i've tried 2.3 and i must say it has reinstalled my faith. i put the game down due to the insane air attacks against well defended bases in 2.2. i due believe the problem is fixed. just finished coral and not once did my planes stray off my master plan and attack a unwanted based. great job guys. btw i sunk the 3 jap carriers and almost got the yorktown into port mosbey for repairs. she sunks 3 hexes shy. the lexington made it through the scenario without a scratch!! allied major was in order and all is well again. once again great job matrix!!:D

I not so sure, I got my CV's parked out side of Shortland, and the CV won't attack the ships sitting in Shortland and Shortland won't attack the CV, both sides "know" there are fighters flying cap, so won't attack it ?

(LOL anything that moves outside of Shortland don't last long, just sank a 7 AP fleet that tried to go back to Truk)

I have had one CV battle (and that was a IJN CV/CVL vs a single US CV while the 3 CV TF sat above the IJN and blew them apart, good bait) and have had 1 air attack on my CV's, 6 Betties, the Zero's forgot to take off ?

LBA will attack land bases, but will try to hit the weaker base ?, seems to know if there is Cap up or not, it was hammering Russell with that base not haveing any Cap on it, moved my Cats over, and that day, the strikes were all on Lunga, move Cap from Gili to PM and the strike is on Gili, move Cap from PM to Gili and the Strike hits PM (not that it matters)

HARD_Sarge

don't take me wrong, I love the new sub rules, land combat looks good, even like the ghostbusters signs, but I think something is wrong with Cap and with the AI attack plotting (don't forget, even under human control, the AI plots the air strikes)

HARD_Sarge

Well, air combat seems better to me all around. I'm not seeing a dramatic shift in the effectiveness of the Zero, but then again most of my battles of late have been CV battles -- Zero vs. F4F. Maybe Zeroes are eating up Airacobras and Kittyhawks, though again I haven't seen a big difference. To the extent the Zero is tougher now, that's all to the good; it seemed underpowered to me in previous patches.

Targeting also seems better. My CV air groups have performed very well since the patch. My Betties and Nells in Rabaul don't fly unless the target is an undefended enemy tanker moving at 3 knots 4 hexes from Rabaul, but what else is new? <grin>

And I absolutely love the new sub routines. Now you really can use choke points, instead of just dumping subs into ports and waiting. And the lower chance of sub contact feels right. In general, subs seem to have been toned down, which makes for a more balanced game overall, IMHO.

HI Grotius
well I wouldn't mind if it was the p-39 being eaten up, it is the Marine Cats and Navy Cats that are being pounded into the ground

last turn, 18 Zeros and 12 Betties tried to attack my CA force, 50 Cats bounced them, 2 Zero's for 5 Cats, Betty damage was all AA (hmm 50 to 18, should have a little advantage, didn't even get to the Betties)

have you seen your LBA attack any of the CV's ?

and the AI is putting up close to 100 planes on Cap over Rebaul, it gets an odd kill now and then, most times the blue line at the buttom of the screen after the fight is over (100 Zeros/Ocsars vs 3 to 9 B-17's, I think the Zero should get a few kills)

which scen you playing ? most seem to be on 17 or 19, I am on 14, so don't know if what I am seeing is based on that or not

HARD_Sarge

Hi Hard Sarge,

You asked if anyone had seen land based air attacking CV's.

I have been messing about as allies against the ai in scenario 17.

Silly me, I have been experimenting with reducing CAP on my CV taskforce to reduce fatigue (will I never learn? Consistently getting my butt kicked so far doing this) prior to an expected confrontation with the Jap carriers.
Rabaul based Betty's attacked my capless CV TF and sunk a carrier

The ai does seem to know when something has CAP

Hi Mike
sorry mate, hope it was just a test game, but yes, if the AI see's the Cap drop, it will come in (which that looks like a cheat to me, put 100 fighters on Russell and on Lunga, stand down all of them on Russell with Lunga up, the AI will attack Russell, replay the turn, shut down Lunga and stand up Russell, the AI will attack Lunga, it knows where the cap is at)(which don't seem to matter none)

my game is getting close to DEC 42 (starts in Aug) my CV TF's have been attacked 3 times by LBA (3 Val's and 12 Zero's attacked, 50 Cat's, and a Val put a bomb into the Wasp, unreal)

best luck I have had to make it attack, is to put another TF in the same hex with the CV

HARD_Sarge

Heya Hard Sarge,

I'm playing 3 PBEMs as IJN in #17, and one as USN in #19. (Heh, I like a challenge.) It's early, so my A6M2 Zeroes (with the occasional A6M3) are fighting their F4F-4s in CV battles, but so far the balance seems good to me.

You're right, 50 Zeroes don't seem to be able to shoot down one B-17, but it is true that Zero pilots historically had lots of trouble with the 17. In any case, that particular issue was argued to death (and tested to death) in the "open beta" thread that led to patch 2.20. (Before 2.20, B-17s used to shoot down Japanese fighters in droves!)

Nope, my LBA hasn't attacked any CVs in any of my PBEM games, except for one strange little pre-2.30 B-17 run against a TK that happened to be in the same hex as about 100 CV-based fighters. My games are still in the early going, so I haven't had much opportunity for such attacks yet.