Matrix Games Forums

How in hells name do you stop them?

I would have thought that moral would have plummeted so low that they would not fly, and there should be more operational losses, but I have been playing against them for a while and they are impenetrable, and proving to be a real pain in the arse, especially as they cant seem to miss.

DM

Hi all,

Originally posted by DoomedMantis
How in hells name do you stop them?

I would have thought that moral would have plummeted so low that they would not fly, and there should be more operational losses, but I have been playing against them for a while and they are impenetrable, and proving to be a real pain in the arse, especially as they cant seem to miss.

DM

In my UV v2.30 new campaign #19 vs. IJN AI I used the 100ft
tactics several times.

They (bombers) do hit enemy ships but their casualties are
high and I get lots of damaged bombers (especially B-17's).

Also their moral after mission is around 10 and they are useless
for many days...


Leo "Apollo11"

I stop them with a house rule: no level bombing at or under 1000 feet.

all good and well now though, considering that we are already 2 months into the game.

I will in future though. I personally had never used them at that height because I was worried about losses and moral, now that i have seen it doesnt really matter though.

DM

Why would you need a house rule of no level bombing below 1000ft with V2.3 ???? I am currently playing SCEN#5 as IJN and my PEBM opponent has done two turns with his MRB flyiny at 1000 ft and also 100 ft. He now has heaps of planes sitting around with low moral, and planes that are all broke:D I "only" lost a few AKs but now have liitle or no MRBs to worry about for the next few weeks.

I tried one strike in one game at 100ft. A few hits, but almost all were damabed, and the morale went from 99 to 10. Other than an absolute emergency, never again!

Originally posted by Grotius
I stop them with a house rule: no level bombing at or under 1000 feet.

With the 2.3 this rule is no longer nescessary. Bombers at 1000 feet are not going to hit much these days and will take a lot of punishment if they try it. At 100 feet, though, assuming they are experienced enough, they should do well skip bombing. Simply ruling out skip bombing, however, is not tenable. You are basically saying the allies should not be able to use a tactic that worked very well for them.

Originally posted by cap_and_gown
With the 2.3 this rule is no longer nescessary. Bombers at 1000 feet are not going to hit much these days and will take a lot of punishment if they try it. At 100 feet, though, assuming they are experienced enough, they should do well skip bombing. Simply ruling out skip bombing, however, is not tenable. You are basically saying the allies should not be able to use a tactic that worked very well for them.

I agree in principle, cap, but allied medium bombers at 1,000 feet remain a significant threat to Japanese shipping after the planes have pilots with experience 70+. I think that this is historical (along with, as you mention, the skip bombing technique) and reflects the growing expertise with which the Allied forces fought along with their increasing qualitative and quantitative advantage (sorry, I sound like a friggin' accountant - must be the grant funding request I had to finish and get turned in to a government agency today at work).

Well, I adopted my house rule before 2.30 went into effect, and I'm certainly not the only person to adopt the rule. If 2.30 has solved the problem, then of course I won't resort to this rule in future games.

They seem to have fixed medium bombers, but the B-17's are still way too usable at low altitudes.

I haven't looked at a B-24 group yet to see how it performs in the roll (being the biggest bomber in the game) but I'll presume it will do better then the B-17's since it is dropping more bombs on target.

The only issue I see now is the disruption rates of AA guns in ground units. With Lae tests, moving all Japan AA units to Lae, they only last 6 days to be 100% !!!! disabled. That seems a little on the rediculous side. The price tag was 33 medium/heavy bombers for those 6 days of abuse. 33 bombers vs 6 AA units.

One of the strange things I noticed is that the base AA value never changes, even with the great increase of AA guns.

originally posted by Mr. Frag

One of the strange things I noticed is that the base AA value never changes, even with the great increase of AA guns.

I haven't done nearly the extensive work you have with the game, so if the question is "lame" then chalk it up to inexperience -

Isn't the base AA value a function of the size of the base versus the AA units stationed there? I would assume (yeah, I know about assuming...) the support units "part of" the base would handle things like AA. But Mr. Frag raises a point I've never checked - does the base AA value increase when base size increases ?

Just a thought

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/20/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Air attack on TF, near Shortland Island at 29,34


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3


no losses

Japanese Ships
TK Kenyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 12,34


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4
Beaufort x 6
Wirraway x 7
P-39D Airacobra x 12
B-25D Mitchell x 6
B-26B Marauder x 6
B-17E Fortress x 3
A-20B Havoc x 3


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 1 damaged
B-25D Mitchell x 2 damaged
B-26B Marauder x 4 damaged
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged
A-20B Havoc x 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
AP Kenshin Maru
AP Kamishima Maru
AP Yamakisan Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Taiho Maru
AP Horaisan Maru
AP Kamoi Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
2 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Shortland Island at 29,34


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3


no losses

Japanese Ships
TK Nippon Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Rabaul at 21,28

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 12,34


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
SBD Dauntless x 11
Beaufort x 6
Wirraway x 5
P-400 Airacobra x 6
P-39D Airacobra x 14
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3
A-24 Dauntless x 3
B-25D Mitchell x 13
B-26B Marauder x 9
B-17E Fortress x 6
A-20B Havoc x 6


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Neikai Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Yamakisan Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Taiho Maru, Shell hits 12
AP Kanayamasan Maru, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Shirogane Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Yamafuku Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Kaisho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ryuosan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Horaisan Maru
AP Kaito Maru
AP Kamishima Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Kenshin Maru, Shell hits 4

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 30

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
4 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 45,63

Japanese Ships
SS I-6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
SBD Dauntless x 11
Beaufort x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 3
A-24 Dauntless x 3
B-25D Mitchell x 12
B-26B Marauder x 9
B-17E Fortress x 15
A-20B Havoc x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-25D Mitchell x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Kanayamasan Maru, on fire
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Horaisan Maru
AP Kamoi Maru
AP Neikai Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Tsunushima Maru, Shell hits 12
AP Ryuosan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kenshin Maru
AP Shirogane Maru, on fire
AP Kaisho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Yamakisan Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Taiho Maru
PC Toshi Maru #3, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 34

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
2 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
4 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 11,34


Allied aircraft
A-20B Havoc x 3


Allied aircraft losses
A-20B Havoc x 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Urakaze

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
Beaufort x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 13
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3
B-25D Mitchell x 12
B-26B Marauder x 9
B-17E Fortress x 12
A-20B Havoc x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
B-26B Marauder x 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Horaisan Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Shinko Maru
AP Shirogane Maru, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Taiho Maru
AP Neikai Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kaisho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kaito Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Ryuosan Maru, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kensho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 53

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
2 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet
3 x A-20B Havoc at 100 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The worst thing is Lae is chock a block full of AA units, should have slaughtered them