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Hi, feel free to post any questions you have about EA here. I have some to get started. I'm new to TOAW so lots of silly questions here perhaps.

1) I read over on gamesquad that there was an updated version of EA with some changes.
gamesquad new version of EA?
It made some changes to Canadians, adding a missing 15th Army Grp, limited sea asslts in arctic, and made lots of other changes. Is this the same version we have in TOAW4?

2) I read this post by Mantis on gamesquad:
"Finland is very similar (but even more telling) for the Russians. I have seen games end before the Russians and Germans even met, simply because the Red player was inexpereinced with the scenario and bled himself white. Can you believe over 100k light rifles squads destroyed, and Finland still standing strong? Funny thing about this one is that an experienced Axis player will hand a determined (but inexperienced) Russian player his head everytime. And this one truly is a game burner. Failure here = Axis Major Victory.

Try this on for size, if any of you are interested...

Load up a hotseat game, and have several indiviual Finn units dug in to fortified status, make them of various sizes. Stack a zillion Russians next to them all and attack. Look at the thousands of rifle squad losses you took from each battle, and 95% of the time, you will not take a single hex.

There is a 'trick' to unseating the Finns - the country can be taken in a very cost-effective manner. A player must know how, of course. It isn't really a trick either, rather a deeper understanding of how the game functions - it makes perfect sense in hindsight. It's is also a beautiful illustration of some of the frustrations a board gamer will face when learning the TOAW system.

On the cardboard counters, a 10-10 is simply that. But here, that 10-10 can be swept away with a strong breeze, or be virtually invulnerable, depending on the circumstances. (Ever try attacking a fortified panzer unit with nothing but infantry?) When this factor is applied to the Russians strategy in Finland, the answer is obvious (again, with hindsight being 20/20).

If someone bites, I'll explain it..."

Does anyone know what this trick is? I don't want to ruin the game as allied player by botching Finland winter war so badly.

3) There is an area on the map in Finland marked "Finnish claimed by USSR". I read the scenario briefing and maybe I missed it - but what is this area? Is there some way for SU to cause Finland to cede this area without completely conquering Finland? This might achieve the goal of protecting Murmansk without conquering Finland (which can bring in the Swedes apparently).




4) Persia. This is in the scenario briefing:
"Iran/Persia (Axis)
If an Allied unit moves adjacent to or attacks an Iranian unit
75% chance about one month (variable) once the Russo-German war begins: this will lead to additional Commonwealth forces being deployed in Basra. (This does mean that there is a 25% chance of the country remaining neutral if it isn't attacked)"
So does it make sense for SU to go after Persia in 39 or 40 to prevent an enemy appearing on the border when RU-GE war begins? I guess it would have to do this without the CW forces in Basra since that event only seems to happen if Persia enters on the 75% roll at start of SU-GE war.

5) Have ships been updated to use the new TOAW4 naval rules? I looked at the KM unit and it appears to have armor, agility, accuracy, speed, etc ratings for its ships so I think this means it's updated right?

6) When I right click on some soviet units and select "formation report" I get Soviet OOB 1 (these appear to be SU units in North of SU), and others I get Soviet OOB2 (in south SU) and others farther south Soviet OOB3. Is there some significant to the units being in separate OOB's in game terms or is this just to keep the formation report from being so many units and difficult to scroll through for player?

7) How should HQ's be used in this scenario? They seem to have some bridging teams, engineer squads, trucks, and small self defense (rifle squads, mg's, at guns). Are they a funnel for supply and thus needed at the front line? Should they be used to run around in the rear and repair bridges? Something else?

...starting 2nd post so I can upload another photo.

8) What is the purpose of the shallow water line of hexes going to Malta from Sicily then on to Tripoli from Malta? What is the purpose of the "sea supply road" going to Malta from Sicily but _not_ continuing on to Tripoli? How do these affect gameplay?



9) There is reference to a v4 of the EA scenario with no more SSR's (sea supply roads). Is this something that is still being worked on? Any chance we'll get EA updated for TOAW4?

EDIT questions 10-15 added:
10) I read some reference on EA AAR's on gamesquad about gaining extra experience for Soviet troops in various campaigns prior to RU-GE war (Finland, Persia, Baltic States, E Poland, etc). Was this just chrome writing or will it actually improve the Soviet air force and army to fight these small campaigns prior to war with GE?

11) I read in AAR's on gamesquad about Timoshenko, Zhukov, Koniev, and other Soviet leaders being put in charge of Karelian front, Persia campaign, etc. Is this just chrome writing or are there actually leader units in EA scenario? I loaded it up to look and don't see any leader units? Or maybe I'm not seeing them?

12) There are German units with the word CIV on the counter that are named "German Industry". Are these supposed to be disbanded? Or how are they used?

13) There are various "garrison" units for GE/SU and probably other countries. Are these typically just left in place or disbanded to expand the replacement pool? Are they good combat units if their hex is actually attacked?

14) There are "supply column" units. When I look at unit report it says a special ability is Supply (range 6). How is the best way to use these in game? I assume they don't generate supply but just somehow facilitiate distribution of supply or higher supply levels near the hex they are in?

15) How can you tell whether a specific unit will reconstitute or not if it is eliminated?

John,

your best bet - contact the chaps that created the scenario. I am known as the operational player here; I haven't even looked at any real monster scenarios since 1997

Klink, Oberst

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Hi, feel free to post any questions you have about EA here. I have some to get started.

I think i can answer to most of your questions.

There was a time a my life I just played EA, several times finishing this scenario either on PBEM or solo.
I also played some different versions of EA and EA through different TOAW versions.

Concerning your questions:

1)EA's latest version is the so called "Veers" version. That's the version you found at Gamesquad. Veers version is a good upgrade to this scenario. However even if it works OK the update project wasn't completed because Veers disappeared in TOAW terms.
This "Veers" version isn't the same which is included in TOAW IV release which is an old version of this scenario.

2) There is nothing wrong with the Winter war or Russian / Finnish war. EA is, in any version, a very balanced and sophisticated scenario, full of different options the player must take and those options can be both taken wrong (and you'll pay the consequences) or right.

3) "Finnish claimed by USSR" area is just chrome. Has no effect other than historical information. This área belongs to Finland in 1939.

4) Persia can be invaded by USSR from the beggining of the scenario avoiding having an enemy on its back later when occupied fighting the Germans.

5) No. EA (any version) wasn't updated to TOAW IV. However it should play OK. The question is that it can be even a better scenario if it profits from the new naval and supply features.

6) No. There isn't any significant to the units being in separate OOB's in game terms. There was a limit (still is?) that didn't allow more that 33 units per each formation.

7) The use of HQ's in TOAW depends a bit on each player gamming style. The aresome chrome in their use. However the most clever use is to take the best from their caracteristics - boosting supply to adjacent cooperating units, traffic control on critical stacked hex's and the engineering capacity either bridge repairing or river fording.

8) The shallow water line of hexes going to Malta from Sicily then on to Tripoli from Malta isn't very elegant but is important because it turns Malta's control as critical for naval moviment in the Mediterranean.
The "sea supply road" purpose is allowing a supply line for Allies if or when they invade Sicily. An Allied attack to Sicily without the control of Malta would not be possible. Makes sense, right?
Please note that Veers versions eliminated all supply roads from the map replacing them for supply points based on engine events. This is one of the points that need further work to perfect.

Hope this reply is usefull to you despite the broken English...

ORIGINAL: secadegas

This "Veers" version isn't the same which is included in TOAW IV release which is an old version of this scenario.

5) No. EA (any version) wasn't updated to TOAW IV. However it should play OK. The question is that it can be even a better scenario if it profits from the new naval and supply features.

8) The shallow water line of hexes going to Malta from Sicily then on to Tripoli from Malta isn't very elegant but is important because it turns Malta's control as critical for naval moviment in the Mediterranean.
The "sea supply road" purpose is allowing a supply line for Allies if or when they invade Sicily. An Allied attack to Sicily without the control of Malta would not be possible. Makes sense, right?
Please note that Veers versions eliminated all supply roads from the map replacing them for supply points based on engine events. This is one of the points that need further work to perfect.

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. I've posted some additional questions if you don't mind can you also answer those?

About your response - it sounds like the version with TOAW is probably the latest version that will play well since the version Veers was updating didn't have supply working correctly and had removed sea supply roads. Is that accurate?

Also a stupid question. What exactly does the shallow water hex do? Why does this make Malta critical for naval movement in the med? Is it that ships can't move across the shallow water hex?

Also can you expound a little on any tips to go about the Finnish campaign with Soviets? Any basic things that should be done to avoid a disaster there at least?

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

About your response - it sounds like the version with TOAW is probably the latest version that will play well since the version Veers was updating didn't have supply working correctly and had removed sea supply roads. Is that accurate?

No. I didn't explain myself correctly.
Veers version is a true upgrade regarding the version included in TOAW IV release. It incorporates most TOAW III latest patches features.
The version included in TOAW IV don't.
Veers version works perfectly (supply included). The only question is that the development project stopped suddenly and there are still improvements that are missing to be even a better scenario.
However that development work still has to be done now to adapt EA to TOAW IV new features.
Please note that any of EA versions will still work OK under TOAW IV.

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

What exactly does the shallow water hex do? Why does this make Malta critical for naval movement in the med? Is it that ships can't move across the shallow water hex?

Yes, ships can't move across the shallow water hex.

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Also can you expound a little on any tips to go about the Finnish campaign with Soviets? Any basic things that should be done to avoid a disaster there at least?

The Winter war (or the Finnish / Russian war) is a difficult option the Allied player has to take early on this scenario.
On one hand you have the Red Army, by this time a combersome weapon, used against a small but efective army on a difficult terrain it may bring nasty surprises.
On other hand if USSR don't invade Finland it will miss some significant replacements. A limited war will secure the reinforcements but it will bring to war an enemy that will look for its revenge later when USSR has its hands full with Barbarossa.


Tough decision. EA is full of them...

How can we get the latest EA version that works well?

Also can you lend a bit more advice about how to go about winter war as Soviets. I've seen AAR's where the allied player gives up due to so many losses in Finland, and others where the allied player methodically crushes Finland then Sweden. There must be some nice tips for this?

Also can you pls have a look at the questions I added in my post above (10) - (15)?

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

2) I read this post on gamesquad:
"Finland is very similar (but even more telling) for the Russians. I have seen games end before the Russians and Germans even met, simply because the Red player was inexpereinced with the scenario and bled himself white. Can you believe over 100k light rifles squads destroyed, and Finland still standing strong? Funny thing about this one is that an experienced Axis player will hand a determined (but inexperienced) Russian player his head everytime. And this one truly is a game burner. Failure here = Axis Major Victory.

Try this on for size, if any of you are interested...

Load up a hotseat game, and have several indiviual Finn units dug in to fortified status, make them of various sizes. Stack a zillion Russians next to them all and attack. Look at the thousands of rifle squad losses you took from each battle, and 95% of the time, you will not take a single hex.

There is a 'trick' to unseating the Finns - the country can be taken in a very cost-effective manner. A player must know how, of course. It isn't really a trick either, rather a deeper understanding of how the game functions - it makes perfect sense in hindsight. It's is also a beautiful illustration of some of the frustrations a board gamer will face when learning the TOAW system.

On the cardboard counters, a 10-10 is simply that. But here, that 10-10 can be swept away with a strong breeze, or be virtually invulnerable, depending on the circumstances. (Ever try attacking a fortified panzer unit with nothing but infantry?) When this factor is applied to the Russians strategy in Finland, the answer is obvious (again, with hindsight being 20/20).

If someone bites, I'll explain it..."

Does anyone know what this trick is? I don't want to ruin the game as allied player by botching Finland winter war so badly.

Hi JJ, I got your messages about my old post, and came by to offer what help I could! I see that Secadegas has taken you in his capable hands and answered most of the questions for you. Nice! (Hi Secadegas, how goes? [:)] )

First thing, please keep in mind that I haven't played since TOAW Century of Warfare, nevermind getting it going on TOAW III... So this is from (faulty, aging!) memory. [:D] With that caveat in place, here goes!

The gist of it is that you can't fight the Finns in a straight-up infantry battle. You'll lose. Oh, you might even take Helsinki, but you'll still lose, because you will never recover from the amount of light rifle squad losses you took. (Most likely, you won't be able to budge them from more than one or two hexes during the entire war...)

So if you want to go against the Finns, you need to decide what your overall plan is, and then use every advantage you possess to execute.

If I remember correctly, there was an actual, tangible bonus to going against the Finns... (Was it an efficiency bonus? Was there an equipment dump?) I also seem to recall an event as the game progressed "Lessons Learned From Winter War" or some such...

Aside from that, (and perhaps most importantly), units start green - you need to blood them so they become veterans. Having this accomplished prior to Barbarossa is huuuuuge. Otherwise you have to do it in battle with the Germans, and the bonuses they have when they start attacking you means that the status of most every unit of yours they encounter will be dead, not veteran...

That said, there are basically three ways to attack Finland.

The first is a token effort, just to get whatever event bonus or equipment dump there might be. (You will only upgrade a few units to veteran this way, but your Light Rifle Squad (LRS) losses will be minimal).

The second is to go for a bit of a land grab, see how far you can push without expending too much effort. (You can upgrade a decent amount of units to veteran this way, and your LRS losses should be minimal if you are careful and stop at the right time).

Lastly, go for the throat. Take Helsinki, clear the country, and you basically secure this front for the rest of the war. You can upgrade a very significant portion of your army this way. (I once upgraded almost *ALL* my army in Finland, and was sneak-attacked super early by my opponent (the scenario's designer), but that's another story!) As mentioned in the original post I made years back, you can lose the war here. LRS losses can finish you, and I've seen players concede the entire game before even getting past this stage.

I'd suggest maybe going in with a "let's see" plan the first time - get what you can without pushing too hard, and keep going until you meet the firm resistance. If that means you get stopped fairly quick, so be it. If you're getting in a decent way, and you can still exploit, go for it! Just be reactive, and go with the flow.

So now that you've decided what you are going to do, you need to prepare. How many units do you need to pull from the rest of the country, and to where? How long will it take to get in position? Do you have infantry units that can walk there in the X turns you require, to help out and let you rail in more distant units?

From this point I'm going to describe things as if I am attempting to take the country, or at least go quite deep. (Meaning that I am not just pushing to see what gives, I am actively trying to wipe out all their units, advance to the capital, etc). This is due to the fact that the tactics are different if you're going to go for it. But all the lessons here apply to the other options as well.

In the preparation stage, I've have sent A LOT of units to the border. Mostly infantry (of course), but *all* mech units, armor, armored recon, etc are sent. Specifically, I recall two or three armored infantry (mech) units that are going to be your workhorses, and these are also the 'secret' (not a secret) to cracking the Finns defences. I have masses of infantry ready to go, all along the entire border. You advance straight in everywhere, and in the north especially, it's almost all empty terrain. Every time you meet a unit up here, you do NOT engage, you simply start walking around this unit, and another Russian unit behind you takes up the hex you were in, while the other units keep advancing and prepare to do the same. What you do if that Finn stays there, is you advance to another, deeper hex that borders him, and all the other units do the same - you now have him surrounded on 4 sides - if he doesn't retreat this turn, you'll encircle him, so he will back off. (If he doesn't leave, then surround him, and move on. Don't even attack, just let the supply drain bleed him white. If he tries busting out, and/or some of your units are getting in bad shape due to that and horrible supply, swap them out for the units that keep coming behind them... And don't worry about it - if he leaves a hex you can advance in to, do it. Don't attack him, just slide around/surround unless he retreats. This will take some time, but it will get you most of the empty north, and likely a surround or two.

Down in the South, you will meet stiff defences right away. Move up, get right in his face in the Mannerheim Line(but don't attack him!) The key to this position is to flank it from the northeast. Use the tactics outlined above to gain all the terrain required to start flanking the Mannerheim line.

Now you can see that this whole thing is built around not fighting, just maneuvering for all the hexes you can grab, as our opponent has so few units they are unable to counter this tactic and have to give up land or risk being cutoff. But what do you do when we hit the hexes we have to fight for? Especially ones where they still have supply? Again, get the surround if possible. If the battle can wait, let his unit wither on the vine - he'll get weaker and weaker every turn if you can wait him out. But if you *do* have to clear a hex, this is where the mechs come in.

Once you've done all your movement and are ready for combat, our goal is to get as many rounds in as possible, with our attack set as limited attack/lightest losses. (Was it minimize losses? Wow, it's been so long I can't even remember the actual terms for the supply drain attack!) Basically the lightest attack with the lightest tolerance for losses. Now, these are not normal attacks meant to move him or clear an encircled hex, this is just to wear him down. Let's say I have three hexes I need to hit for this turn - one is in the south and is in supply - I need to move him to outflank the Mannerheim line. Two others are in the north, and are surrounded (not in supply). In the south, I will have both of the mechs, which are the key part of this. In the north, I will use my recon units. (If I *have* to, I will split my recon units into three up north to ensure there is at least one for every battle I have). You then set each of these (single) units to attack on the settings mentioned above. (If you have a big battle, you will save these for the last part of your turn). YOU DO NOT ATTACK WITH ANY UNITS EXCEPT THESE! So to be clear, one mech, one attack over and over again on one hex. A second hex means second mech, 3rd hex (and all hexes in north) means one recon unit per hex, or 1/3 recon unit if required!

When you resolve the battle, if you only attacked with the above settings using the mech and recon units, chances are excellent that you still have most of your turn left. Do it again. And again. Hey - if there are no big battles, keep doing this until your turn ends. If memory serves, you are dropping 10% off his readiness and supply for each attack - you will have that Finn glowing cherry red in no time, especially if he is out of supply.

The mech units should take little to no damage when doing this, although the recons may get torn up a bit, especially if you had to split them. (Infantry units doing this - which is sometimes required - take a horrible beating in equipment losses). When you are doing these attacks in the south (which can sometimes get quite crowded as you start flanking the Mannerheim Line), make sure your attacking unit (the mech) is not in an overcrowded hex (has a yellow/orange/red light beside your stack of units), as it will take additional damage when doing these repeated attacks.

The time will come when it is time to clear the encircled hexes - in the north this will be a huge infantry battle where you attack from all sides. (If you have a unit that is super fragile, don't be afraid to swap him out of the encirclement, or don't attack with him - you don't want one of the attackers to evaporate and let the Finn out of the surround!) In the south you might not have the encirclement but need the hex. You will have already hit it over and over for many turns to ensure it is in the worst possible shape. (I seem to recall 33/1, but maybe have that wrong...) Then you hit that hex with the mech (which you never split in three - you lose efficiency, and those mechs are what will open the tough hexes for you!) supported by tons of infantry, hopefully not overcrowding too many hexes and taking the extra losses. (But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do!)

The entire key to the whole thing is to never fight if you can walk around. Take another hex. Then take one after that. Make him chose to either attack you (this works in our favor), retreat, or get encircled. When you have encircled him, don't attack unless you need to - let time kill him for you. When you do need to attack, weaken the hex over and over again with a million limited attack/light losses battles (with a single unit!) so you can wear him down to nothing, and then you hit him from all sides possible with overwhelming force, your mech units leading the way.

The mechs are super important because the Finns have virtually no equipment that can touch them. This is where board wargamers have a hard time with the switch. "A 10-10 unit needs to be attacked with 'x' amount of strength to give me a 4-1" etc etc... But as I mentioned in the post from years ago - not all 10-10s are created equal. If you look 'under the hood' at your units, you will see that most of them are made up of several equipment types - some as many as 15 or more! TOAW matches each equipment type up against opposing targets equipment etc each combat round, so it's not simply a 46 vs 10 gives a 4-1 so lets go hit the CRT table and see what I can roll... The game sees the vehicles that are in your mech unit, and when the Finns attack/defend, they have no equipment types that can get past the armor, so the mech units are almost invulnerable. (The only way they will die is if the Russian player basically kills them himself by accident... )

If you use the above tactics properly, you can do some great damage in Finland. As a matter of fact, taking it out completely was something I did in every single game after I had all this down pat. There are pitfalls - you can take too long, it can still be too expensive if it doesn't go just right, the Germans may attack early if you send too much, etc. But once you have the hang of it you can do pretty good with this method!

Also - please note that I posted without proofreading and some of it was incomeplete, not clear, etc. Please have a peek at it now as some points weren't correct without the missing word etc.

Hope that helps JJ - let me know if any of it was unclear!

Thanks Mantis. Interesting stuff. I don't know that there are recon units any longer in the scenario. I don't see any. Also there were some engine changes for TOAW4 to get rid of supply drain type attacks but I'm not sure of the specifics....so this may no longer work.

Can you have a look at my other EA questions please? Specifically 10-15?

ty

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

EDIT questions 10-15 added:
10) I read some reference on EA AAR's on gamesquad about gaining extra experience for Soviet troops in various campaigns prior to RU-GE war (Finland, Persia, Baltic States, E Poland, etc). Was this just chrome writing or will it actually improve the Soviet air force and army to fight these small campaigns prior to war with GE?

11) I read in AAR's on gamesquad about Timoshenko, Zhukov, Koniev, and other Soviet leaders being put in charge of Karelian front, Persia campaign, etc. Is this just chrome writing or are there actually leader units in EA scenario? I loaded it up to look and don't see any leader units? Or maybe I'm not seeing them?

12) There are German units with the word CIV on the counter that are named "German Industry". Are these supposed to be disbanded? Or how are they used?

13) There are various "garrison" units for GE/SU and probably other countries. Are these typically just left in place or disbanded to expand the replacement pool? Are they good combat units if their hex is actually attacked?

14) There are "supply column" units. When I look at unit report it says a special ability is Supply (range 6). How is the best way to use these in game? I assume they don't generate supply but just somehow facilitiate distribution of supply or higher supply levels near the hex they are in?

15) How can you tell whether a specific unit will reconstitute or not if it is eliminated?

After Mantis (EA "master player") full explanation about the Winter war, i'll try to answer your further questions:

10) Most Red army units start on veteran status and medium / low proficiency. Fighting bring units more proficiency. Veteran however don't gain proficiency so quickly as untried units. Getting proficiency, IMO, should not be your goal because you can get some proficiency but you may lose equipment (LRS and so on).
Your decision making should be always on operational / strategic terms.

11) No. There aren't any named units in EA.

12) The CIV german units should not be disbanded. The represent german industry in the sense that if those units are air bombed by Allies they will lose equipment. Those units will compensate their loses "sucking" equipment from the replacements pool leaving less equipment available for the fighting forces.

13) No units can be disbanded, except those land units forced into "sea supply roads". It's EA (player enforced) house rule. Some of these garrisons units are better than other same as the different armies involved in the scenario.

14) Supply units extend the supply radius (on a given indicated radius) and have a supply boost efect on adjacent cooperative units.

15) You can only check that on the scenario editor (unit replacements priority)


I can't find Veers version (EA 2012) in Gamesquad anymore. Probably somebody have it. I don't have it as such because i modified it long ago for my own use.