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Anyone wonder how WitP is going to model the entry of the Soviet Union in the Pacific War? How will deep penetration by armoured spearheads by modelled in a game like this?

Good question.

Also what effect would an early entry have on air ops against Japan. With the Soviets in, Japan is easily within air striking range of B-24/17 bombers.

Originally posted by showboat1
Good question.

Also what effect would an early entry have on air ops against Japan. With the Soviets in, Japan is easily within air striking range of B-24/17 bombers.

Japan was within "easy reach" of B-29's in China too. But
getting the fuel, ordinance, and support elements to China was
a nightmare. Given Vladavostok's location, it's hard to see an
attampt to base heavy bombers in Siberia would be anything
but worse. The Russian Army was using the entire capacity
of the Trans-Siberian RR to move it's own troops and supplies.

If we're lucky, 2by3 will keep Soviet participation in the war
with Japan to historical terms. Unless they want to offer a "Japan
moves Northwest" scenario for 1941. Of course, it's hard to see
the result of such a decision as anything but "Good for Adolf; Bad
for Joe; and Totally Devastating for the Japanese Army." But
with the lessons of Kalkin Gol at hand, it shouldn't even be an
option for anything but those who like hitting themselves in the
head with a hammer.

Historical Soviet intervention serves as a nice "deadline" for
American Efforts. If the Japanese can keep the US "from the doorstep" until then, the Japanese Player can at least claim "we
both lost" in the after-action festivities.

Hmmm....

How about this:
Japan launches a pre-emptive strike into Soviet territory in mid-1943.
This puts enormous pressure on Stalin who screams bloody murder for more support from the US since he is now being squeezed at both ends and looks as though he might finally collapse to the German Wehrmacht.
US units are pulled out of the Pacific to beef up the Atlantic pressure on Germany and run convoys to Uncle Joe.
The Pacific becomes more stagnant and the Allies most find alternative ways of hitting back.

Originally posted by showboat1
Hmmm....

How about this:
Japan launches a pre-emptive strike into Soviet territory in mid-1943.
This puts enormous pressure on Stalin who screams bloody murder for more support from the US since he is now being squeezed at both ends and looks as though he might finally collapse to the German Wehrmacht.
US units are pulled out of the Pacific to beef up the Atlantic pressure on Germany and run convoys to Uncle Joe.
The Pacific becomes more stagnant and the Allies most find alternative ways of hitting back.

Hi, Nice except by mid 43 the Soviets are clearly winning. This is the worst possible time for Japan to get into a war with them.
The Soviets are secure in the west and have a very large reserve of troops and equipment. (The last major German offensive is in July 43 and it stalls without much productive results. The US lands in Italy during this battle drawing off German forces from the eastern front.) If Japan waits past mid 42 then she is better off letting the Soviets declare war (by which time Japan has already won or lost against the USN)

In WITP there is a very large Soviet presence. (94 Soviet subs based near Japan plus large air and ground forces. )

Originally posted by Mogami


In WITP there is a very large Soviet presence. (94 Soviet subs based near Japan plus large air and ground forces. )

Mogami, I find this very interesting.....does the allied player have access to the USSR naval units? Are you able to (allowed) to expand on what the USSR units are for? And what of the USSR land and air units?

The allies asked the Soviets to allow bombers to base in eastern Europe to bomb Germany but the Soviets said no.

There is no way they would then allow allied bombers to base within striking distance of Japan.

Historically, Japan wanted to finish the war against China but they were short of resources – mostly oil.

The US placed an embargo on oil sales to Japan and the Japanese attacked the US.

The Soviet Union had no influence on the Pacific war until they declared war on Japan.

The objective of the Campaign Game, should be: can the Japanese survive longer than their historical counterparts?

A B-29 was forced to make an emergency landing in Russia after taking damage over Japan. The Soviets interned it (captured it) and dismantled it so they could copy the design – which they did down to the last bolt.

Japan tried to have the Soviets relay messages to the US to discuss peace terms but the Soviets always stalled the Japanese because they wanted to enter the war and expand their territory, which they eventually did. To this day, 58 years later the Russians STILL hold some of the northern islands of Japan! That’s why the Japanese refused to give any financial aid to the Russians after the Soviet Union collapsed.

The Soviets were scum, Stalin was scum, and the Russian government today isn’t much better.

Yamamoto

Wasn't the Soviet B-29 know as the Tu-4?
And you're right, the Soviet Union and Stalin were scum.
Hirohito and Co. weren't any better, though.

Originally posted by showboat1
Hmmm....

How about this:
Japan launches a pre-emptive strike into Soviet territory in mid-1943.

Pre-emptive strike in 1943?

Mayby is a better 'What If' that the Japanese strike by Nomonhan in 1939 was succesfull, and Zhukov was defeated or the battle was a draw.

Greetings, The Soviet naval units have not been placed yet.
There are several hundred fighters (mostly I-16 type 24) and several hundred level bombers (Il-4 and SB-2) Also many land units.
The area concerned is quite vast. It would require a commitment I don't feel the Japanese are capable of (considering they are already in over their heads (troop wise) down south.
The IJN is not much help against the Soviets (and at great risk, the main IJN base (Kure) is in Soviet air range. (I do not think Japan want several hundred level bombers hitting Kure at night)
Or 94 Soviets subs parked in the Yellow/East China Seas.

Forget Russia. Japan can gain little and lose much bringing them into the war. Just pray they stay out of the war. (The one thing the Soviets can not do is invade Japan.) If the Soviet Union enters the war in 1945, so what? (As long as USAAF bombers can not use USSR airfields it is no big deal)

Wasn't the Soviet B-29 know as the Tu-4?

The Soviets did impound and copy B-29s that were forced to emergency land in the Soviet Union. I'm not sure if it was called the TU-4, but whatever it was called, it wasnt available to the Soviets until after the war had ended.

I think if the game were to remain historically accurate, the only involvement the Soviets should have should be be under AI control in the final few months of the war as they attempt to gobble up Japanese territory to create some political leverage in the post war Pacific theatre.

IMO, if the JPN player wants to get involved in a *another* land war in Asia he ought to be allowed. IN that event, the USSR becomes a playable Allied faction, but with something akin to "stacking restrictions."

Originally posted by mdiehl
IMO, if the JPN player wants to get involved in a *another* land war in Asia he ought to be allowed. IN that event, the USSR becomes a playable Allied faction, but with something akin to "stacking restrictions."

Hi, Trust me folks. Japan does not want a war with the Soviets.
(He can get it anytime he wants, just attack them)
There is nothing to be gained.

(Let sleeping dogs lie)

The Soviets are included. Leave them alone!!!! (The front is too large and there are too many Soviets. ) Consider them "window dressing" and then forget about them. You can not prepare for their entry into the war and you certainly do not want to provoke it.

Aww shucks. I always wanted to see how a Type 95 tankette would fare against a T34-85.

Aww shucks. I always wanted to see how a Type 95 tankette would fare against a T34-85.

Search the net for video of US Abrams tanks going against Iraqi T-55s and T-72s in the Gulf War, you'll get the general idea.

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, Trust me folks. Japan does not want a war with the Soviets.
(He can get it anytime he wants, just attack them)
There is nothing to be gained.

(Let sleeping dogs lie)

The Soviets are included. Leave them alone!!!! (The front is too large and there are too many Soviets. ) Consider them "window dressing" and then forget about them. You can not prepare for their entry into the war and you certainly do not want to provoke it.

Hey mdiehl and Mogami

While Mogami is certainly correct that to fight the USSR straight up under the historical constraints would have been suicide for the Japanese there could be several what if scenarios based upon how well the Germans do in 1941 on the Eastern Front. If for example both Leningrad and Moscow fell in this year the USSR would have been forced at the very least to strip units from the Northern Resource Area (NRA) to counter these events leaving the possibility that Japan could attack the USSR and seize the NRA.

I am not suggesting that this land campaign be the crux of the sceanrio as Witp/UV is essentially a naval/air engine and is ill suited for modelling land warfare of this scope. Instead I would like to see a set of scenarios based upon the premise that the Axis has either forced the USSR to capitulate or has them sufficiently contained whereby Japan is left in control of the NRA and as a result their war making capacity has been greatly increased but they are still not satisfied. The war against the Allies and the SRA would not begin until late 1942 in this case to represent the time necessary to complete its northern expansion.

Variants of this scenario could include reduction of UK forces in theater to represent them being called home as the Germans would now have the ability to bring force to bear on England once again. India could remain loyal to the Commonwealth, declare its independence or align with the Axis. (NB If India is not in Allied hands it should also be pretty clear that there will be some pretty dramatic times in China as well!) Likewise Australian and New Zealand forces may be called back to the Pacific theater for the same reason. While the US would be more prepared for war in 1942 than it was historically in 1941 more US forces would need to be allocated to the European theater with the USSR out of the picture so while they could have more and better equipment they would still be operating on a shoestring in the Pacific for the first 12-18 months of the conflict.

I know many will bristle at this suggestion but IMO it would make for rather interesting and far more balanced scenarios than the 'historical' campaign where the Japanese player is generally resigned to trying to do better than the historical outcome.

Cheers

Gus

Originally posted by gus
Hey mdiehl and Mogami



I know many will bristle at this suggestion but IMO it would make for rather interesting and far more balanced scenarios than the 'historical' campaign where the Japanese player is generally resigned to trying to do better than the historical outcome.

Cheers

Gus

In this limited sense, it would certainly make for a different war.
Though Japanese siezure of the 'Northern Resource Area" is
still a somewhat "iffy" proposition, and aquiring the additional
merchant shipping to bring the "stolen goods" back to Japan
is another one. Biggest question is, what are the Japanese
going to do for fuel if they wait until late 1942 and allow their
stockpiles to drop another years worth? Remember, they are
being embargoed!

If you can put all that aside, the Japanese are still facing the
problem of having their "window of opportunity" against the US
slip away. In 1943, the fruits of the "Two-Ocean Navy Bill" start
arriving in full flood---and except for the escorts, it will be heading
to the Pacific. MacArthur will have had a year more to train (and
more importantly, equip) his native army, recieve the newer and
stronger aircraft he was promised, and upgrade the defenses.
And US Code-breakers an additional year to totally read Japanese Radio Traffic and intentions.

Even the Brits will be better off. They were out-producing the
Germans in Aircraft through 1941, and bring new designs on line.
By late 1942, even with some pressure added from the Germans,
they would still have been able to upgrade both the types and
numbers of their A/C in Southeast Asia. The troops in Malaya
would recieve their missing equipment, and have a year to learn
to use it. Plus a disaster to the USSR will increase the amount of
Lend-Lease available from an ever-growing output, as well as
the chances of the US getting into the war in Europe and freeing
up Commonwealth Forces to stay in Asia.

What you suggest may be a different fight..., but I'm not at all
certain it would be a better on for the Japanese.

Hi Mike,

You raise so me good points so let's see if I can address them.

The premise of these sceanrios is that Japan is in possession of the NRA as the USSR has capitualated or been contained by the end of 1941 so the 'if' that you refer to is actually a given. To the victor belong the spoils and this is true for both the Germans and the Japanese, they not only have access to the raw materials they covet but the infrastructure of production and transportation as well. There is already a thread on this forum about the capturing of naval assets under historical circumstances so simply extending that to apply to the NRA scenarios implies that the Japanese may capture significant naval assets as a consequence of the USSR's misfortune.

The oil embargo is certainly a serious issue in historical terms but the Japanese initially had plans to seize the NRA but were compelled to reconsider the advantages of pursuing their SRA strategy by their tremendous defeat suffered during the battle(s) of Halhin Gol. From what I have read about these events it has always appeared to me that the Japanese strategic planners' first choice to sustain offensive military operations in China was the NRA and the SRA while a legitimate alternative was considered of secondary importance. So for the sake of argument maybe we can agree that the Japanese in late 1942 would be in virtually the same situation regarding oil reserves as they were in late 1941 since they would not have had to conduct a sustained offensive naval campaign to seize the NRA and whatever oil reserves were used in the NRA campaign would be offset by what was captured. if that will not suffice we can add another premise to these scenarios that the oil embargo never occurred.

I have lumped all of the other points into a single category, 'general allied preparedness'. I think that it goes without saying that the UK and Commonwealth would be fully mobilized both from a production and military buildup standpoint by late 1942. I cannot say the same for the US however. The US has historically been prone to be reactive rather than proactive and so usually only responds after a crisis occurs. The naval construction campaign would certainly be bearing fruit by late 1942 but the US would still be neutral so I doubt that it would have taken advantage of the year's grace and be fully mobilized to meet the southern thrust of the 1942 Japanese Naval Offensive. I think the situation would be very similar to what happened historically in 1941, better airplanes and preparedness by the active duty personnel perhaps but IMO there would be no massive build up to deter Japanese aggression.

If the US did enter the war their strategic goal would be to immediately support the UK to insure that it does not fall. By late 1942 the UK would have had a 12-18 month respite from a sustained bombing campaign and would have certainly had time to repair the damage done and improve production capacity. But by this stage the UK would be financially bankrupt and topped out on production capacity. German production capacity on the other hand would only be hitting its stride by late 1942 with the influx of raw materials and production capacity captured in the USSR and peak production would continue to grow through 1944 if not beyond as the European timeline would be drastically pushed out with the USSR out of the picture. The US commitment to the ETO would have to be quite dramatic to insure the UK's survival so considerably more land, naval and air assets would have to be allocated to the defense of Europe than were allocated historically. This would come at the expense of the Pacific theater of course.

What can I say about MacArthur. I know there are many people that love and respect him but I am not one of them. I admired him when I was young but the more I read about him the more I believe he is a portrait of flawed greatness. I firmly believe that even if he had an additional year to prepare the PI that he would still have been surprised on the morning of the attack and forced to retreat to Bataan. He would probably hold out longer, and we would not be celebrating the anniversary of his famous departure form the PI this past week but later in the year

The goal of these scenarios would be to level the playing field to see what might have happened in these circumstances. I am fully aware that there are many issues that some folks will have problems accepting but they are just alternatives to the historical scenarios nothing more nothing less.

Gus

PLEASE don't lump me in with the MacArthur Lovers..., I think
his performance in 1941 to mid-1943 was abysmal. I just meant
that many of his fantasies would have been much closer to being
realities with another year of preparation and equipment.

But I find most of your justifications pretty far-fetched. Just
where was this extra year's worth of oil going to come from?
And victory by the Germans in 1941 is pretty unrealistic. Maybe
forcing some kind of cease-fire by the end of 1942, based on a
combination of enlightened German Political Activity in the
areas overrun and Stalin's mis-givings over getting any help
from the West is an outside possibility---but a German outright
"win" in 1941?

Point is.., WHY BOTHER? If you have to batter historical reality
beyond recognition to make your case---why not just ignore it?
Just do your own scenario starting in December 1941 and SAY
that the Japanese were in better shape to participate. Call it
the "Pacific War in the Andromeda Galaxy". And it will be easier
to do since you only have to change the Japanese side.