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Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:45 pm
by Christolos
I'm playing a game as the Allies against the Axis AI. It is July 1941 and Spain joined the Axis and took Gibraltar. I'm not sure how that happened given that I am kicking the AI's butt in Libya (screenshot provided)...but it may have been due to diplo pressure (I see that the Axis have spent 600 MPPs to date...whereas I haven't...), in any case Kudos to the AI!
The issue I am now facing is that I cannot move Allied ships into the Med. This is understandable given that the Axis (Spain) now control Gibraltar...but why aren't there any loops (to move in and out) available for the Allies in this situation, as there are for the Axis when Gibraltar is Allied controlled? [&:]
C
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:46 pm
by KorutZelva
there's a loop to get you to the red sea
scan for arrows at the bottom of the map of the african coast in the atlantic
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:20 pm
by Christolos
Hi KorutZelva,
Yes, I am aware of that loop...I'm just wondering if that being the only way into the Med, under this circumstance, is realistic. [&:]
C
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:39 am
by PvtBenjamin
ORIGINAL: Christolos
Hi KorutZelva,
Yes, I am aware of that loop...I'm just wondering if that being the only way into the Med, under this circumstance, is realistic. [&:]
C
Good Point
It seems that the Axis gateway to Mediterranean/Atlantic around Gibraltar should switch to Allied access. No logic that Axis have it when Allies control Gibraltar and the Allies dont when Axis control.
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:14 pm
by BillRunacre
Hi
The reason is that Germans had a string of posts either side of the strait and also beneath it during the war, to enable them to spot Allied shipping through the Strait, and this would only have been increased had they actually taken Gibraltar. The chances of Allied ships having been able to use the strait in those circumstances would have been minimal.
From Paul Preston's Franco:
'In early 1942... the Abwehr was constructing, with the aid of the Spanish navy, a seabed sonic detection across the Straits of Gibraltar and a chain of fourteen infra-red ship surveillance stations along the routes which would be used by the convoys for the projected Allied landings in North Africa (Operation Torch). With nine stations on the Spanish coast and a further five in Morocco, the system became fully operational on 15 April 1942'.
Bill
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:49 pm
by Christolos
Many thanks Bill!
That makes sense.
C
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:04 pm
by xwormwood
But I guess this would be a great Decision Event for the Allied side if the Axis took Gibraltar.
The UK was able to read most of the german enigma messages, so it is possible that they might have found a way to at least attack some of the Axis installations, or at least they might have found a way to temporarily disable them.
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:09 pm
by James Taylor
Used to be if you could reduce Gibraltar supply to 0, then any unit Axis or Allied could traverse the strait.
Not sure if that still applies as there are now 2 ports also.
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:42 am
by sPzAbt653
Yes, it still works that way. [:)]
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:57 pm
by James Taylor
So do you have to reduce the two ports as well as Gibraltar to supply 0 or just Gibraltar?
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:04 pm
by KorutZelva
ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre
Hi
The reason is that Germans had a string of posts either side of the strait and also beneath it during the war, to enable them to spot Allied shipping through the Strait, and this would only have been increased had they actually taken Gibraltar. The chances of Allied ships having been able to use the strait in those circumstances would have been minimal.
From Paul Preston's Franco:
'In early 1942... the Abwehr was constructing, with the aid of the Spanish navy, a seabed sonic detection across the Straits of Gibraltar and a chain of fourteen infra-red ship surveillance stations along the routes which would be used by the convoys for the projected Allied landings in North Africa (Operation Torch). With nine stations on the Spanish coast and a further five in Morocco, the system became fully operational on 15 April 1942'.
Bill
Seems more like a fog of war issue than a hard interdiction to cross. If that's the concern make it a DE lifting FOW near gibraltar... but they would still need a maritime bomber or the Italian fleet for actual deterrence.
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:23 pm
by Christolos
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
So do you have to reduce the two ports as well as Gibraltar to supply 0 or just Gibraltar?
+1
C
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:12 pm
by sPzAbt653
Friendly naval units can move thru an enemy port if it is at '0'. The nearby land hexes have no effect.
RE: Why can't Allied ships move into the Med when Gibraltar is Axis held?
Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:36 pm
by Hairog
Good to know...