Matrix Games Forums

Kind of strange but I have only noticed this yesterday.
When starting the campaign (so first movements, no battles, no other units moved in the path) the furthest I can get with armoured elements is 85 km (recon on a highway) when at the same time the infantry regiment can cover 50 km. Am I doing something wrong here? I mean for 3.5 day turn this a pathetic distance for a recon unit (tanks can only cover same distance as infantry).
Historically on June 27, 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups met up at Minsk advancing 300 km into Soviet territory . Seems like I'm doing something terribly stupid or something is set up wrong as I cannot get more than 200 km in 2 turn and only with recon elements

Another two things of more general nature.
Why it is not allowed to transport unitsby rail in one go? I mean 200 km by train was in-and-out operation for a day. And within 3 days that should still allow for some fighting.
No chance of getting the semi-automatic digging in? There is no added value (just wast of time) to having to dig 'em all manually. One I order them to dig in they should be digging in until order otherwise.

ORIGINAL: gliz2
One I order them to dig in they should be digging in until order otherwise.

12.4. Fortification
(Advanced Rules)
Once ordered to dig in, units will continue
to dig until their location is Fortified or you give
them other orders.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Kind of strange but I have only noticed this yesterday.
When starting the campaign (so first movements, no battles, no other units moved in the path) the furthest I can get with armoured elements is 85 km (recon on a highway) when at the same time the infantry regiment can cover 50 km. Am I doing something wrong here? I mean for 3.5 day turn this a pathetic distance for a recon unit (tanks can only cover same distance as infantry).
Historically on June 27, 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups met up at Minsk advancing 300 km into Soviet territory . Seems like I'm doing something terribly stupid or something is set up wrong as I cannot get more than 200 km in 2 turn and only with recon elements

I am assuming your opponent is a human player. Having said that, no human player is going to order a general offensive against the German player, thus losing a good portion of Soviet forces in useless counter attacks. A human player knows what forces are confronting them and what their intents are. A human player does not have their communications severed and so can see exactly what is happening. The things that made the German advances possible are not present in any Barbarossa scenario without totally taking away the Soviet player's ability to do anything with the frontier armys. Instead the human player will attempt a general withdrawal while sacrificing units to slow down the German advance. In the scenario the Soviet player has historical hindsight. In any Barbarossa setting you will never get a historic outcome.

Let me rephrase that last sentence. You will never get a historic outcome unless it is designed into the scenario. Perhaps the scenario should let the AI take control of certain armies and give them objectives within historic parameters for the first and/or second turn. After all, there were no communications between Army HQ and it's units. So the units used standing orders that they all had. These standing orders were basically to advance to the border, not pull back.

Lobster
Thanks mate. I will have a look. I got the impression it was not happening in FITE2. But I know that some units take more than a turn to see the increased dug in (like from D to E).
I'll report back.

You have to remember that for whatever reason the entrenchment rate in the scenario has been, er...neutered. 50% of default I believe? So if that is the case it could take twice as long.

Lobster let me rephrase the main question:
The effective maximum range of my recon units is 85 km (I cannot move them any further than 85 km).

The issue is not about the advance speeds but about the movement capacity. In reality a operation movement of 500 km in 7 days on the front was nothing special. However it seems impossible to do in FITE2 because the implied ranges. For me this is puzzling.

"Why it is not allowed to transport units by rail in one go? I mean 200 km by train was in-and-out operation for a day. And within 3 days that should still allow for some fighting."

This is a TOAW problem, not a FITE problem and I have raised it in the past. Last time I gave a real life example of an exercise I did once. We moved 9kms from the Enoggera Army barracks to Roma Street rail yards (no longer there). A vehs B vehs and approx 500 men. We then moved by train to the Shoalwater Bay training area which was approx 600kms. Then from the rail head to the exercise FUP (approx another 30kms). The move from Enoggera started Sunday morning 0700 and the exercise started 25hrs later at 0800 Monday morning. In TOAW that is one move to the rail yard, one move to SBT, and part of a move to the FUP. In FITE it takes 1 week to do what we did in 25 hours.

Fogger
Exactly my point. The Soviets where literraly railed into combact into 1941 and even in 1942.On one day they could be put into transport, shipped 800 km or so and next day go straight into combact.

What needs to be done is scaling of rail movement points in relation to time scale and map scale. Changing from rail to road and road to rail should cost movement points, yes. It will never be correct because it covers over a 100 year period over the entire globe. Rail in China during WW2 would be hugely different from rail in Europe in 1998.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Lobster let me rephrase the main question:
The effective maximum range of my recon units is 85 km (I cannot move them any further than 85 km).

The issue is not about the advance speeds but about the movement capacity. In reality a operation movement of 500 km in 7 days on the front was nothing special. However it seems impossible to do in FITE2 because the implied ranges. For me this is puzzling.

Lobster let me rephrase the main question:
The effective maximum range of my recon units is 85 km (I cannot move them any further than 85 km).

The issue is not about the advance speeds but about the movement capacity. In reality a operation movement of 500 km in 7 days on the front was nothing special. However it seems impossible to do in FITE2 because the implied ran

Maybe you can give an example of what you want to do and what you say you cannot do. In FITE2 we have given the Axis player through the editor almost as much movement allowance that the game engine will allow on the first two turns with extra movement allowance and no ZOC.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Lobster let me rephrase the main question:
The effective maximum range of my recon units is 85 km (I cannot move them any further than 85 km).

The issue is not about the advance speeds but about the movement capacity. In reality a operation movement of 500 km in 7 days on the front was nothing special. However it seems impossible to do in FITE2 because the implied ranges. For me this is puzzling.

In some places the advance was up to 900 kilometers in two months. I don't believe anyone advanced 500km in one week. Przemsyl to Dnepropetrovsk is 900km. Are you talking about what you could do with your recon units because of the crazy movement bias given the Axis and complete lack of zoc for the Soviet side?

I will post pictures later on but generally I'm seeing quite the opposite. So instead of being able to cover up to 200 km per turn I can barely make 85 km in first turn. I have tried few thing but to no avail.
And a single combat results in even lower ranges. Same for the movements on the road.

When recon unit is moving in own territory the cost per highway/road hex is 1 but behind enemy line is 4 points. For infantry it goes from 1 to 3 points. Makes no sense to me [&:]

@Lobster
Mate I'm writing about movement and not advance. Movement is moving unit dfrom point A to B. Advance is getting through enemy lines. Get it out of your system Sir [;)]

Example from Bagration operation is Bagramyan’s motorized columns dash, which had passed Third Panzer Army’s left flank, turned north and, in an 80-kilometer (during the night) move, captured Jelgava and cut the last rail link to Army Group North.

In 5 weeks Soviet Army advanced some 750 km.

Sadly, I don't seem to have a copy of FITE2. It doesn't seem to have been included with the game and isn't on Larry's list.

However, IF its scale is 5km/hex and half-week turns, then it is the same scale as CFNA and needs the myriad adjustments I made for that scenario.

Curtis
I though it is a standard scenario just placed in that strage folder (Graphics override or something). I got my copy on a realse day and it was there.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Curtis
I though it is a standard scenario just placed in that strage folder (Graphics override or something). I got my copy on a realse day and it was there.

Ah, there it is: Custom Graphics. And it is 5km/hex and half-week turns.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

Example from Bagration operation is Bagramyan’s motorized columns dash, which had passed Third Panzer Army’s left flank, turned north and, in an 80-kilometer (during the night) move, captured Jelgava and cut the last rail link to Army Group North.

In 5 weeks Soviet Army advanced some 750 km.

that's only 150km per week. 75km per half week turn. Well within your 85km.

ORIGINAL: gliz2

I will post pictures later on but generally I'm seeing quite the opposite. So instead of being able to cover up to 200 km per turn I can barely make 85 km in first turn. I have tried few thing but to no avail.
And a single combat results in even lower ranges. Same for the movements on the road.

When recon unit is moving in own territory the cost per highway/road hex is 1 but behind enemy line is 4 points. For infantry it goes from 1 to 3 points. Makes no sense to me [&:]

@Lobster
Mate I'm writing about movement and not advance. Movement is moving unit dfrom point A to B. Advance is getting through enemy lines. Get it out of your system Sir [;)]

I'm well aware of what you are talking about. The number of examples where a motorized column moved through enemy territory at highway speeds are few. One is the run to Daugavpils as though it were a Sunday drive. It's extremely difficult to recreate those kinds of things including the coup to take the bridge there. The game tends take what you do to recreate those sprints and apply them universally across the entire map.

The scenario designer game the Axis a 150% movement bias and basically eliminated Soviet zones of control. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm saying you yourself can edit those in the event editor so you get what you want.

From the scenario documentation:

Event description:

Germany.
Turn 1-? (See below) Automatic.
Operation: Barbarossa:
Axis ground shock: 150 for 3 turn then 120.
Axis Air Shock: 150 for 3 turn then 120 until Rasputitza then 110.
Soviet Air Shock: 5 for 3 turns then 90 till turn Rasputitza
Soviet land shock 80 for 2 turns
Axis Recon: 10 for 2 turn the 0
Axis Zoc cost:,0 for 3 turns then 50% of normal until turn 12, then 75% until Rasputitza
Axis movement bias: 150% at turn 1, then 125% at turn 2, returning to normal on turn 3.

Edit those last two however you wish and you have what you are hoping for. Well, not the ZOC because it's as low as it can possibly go. But at least the movement bias can be made higher. Up to 450%+ i believe.

I mean this looks quite odd to me that at the same road with the same situation armoured units cannot go much further than foot infantry [&:][&:][&:]

I changed turn one movement bias to 100% and: