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So just got to OCT 1941 soviet sapper regiments now downgrade to sapper battalions.

This is mainly an FYI to all veteran soviet players they are now pointless to build and for sure not worth the 2 AP for regiments prior to the downgrade.

The designers really need to vet massive nerfs like this before they are added to the game.

Many players will hit OCT then realize ohh crap I just wasted AP on sappers that are now useless. At less than 400 men per BN these units are effectively useless now for the Soviet OOB/play as they are no use for construction value or combat value now.

Good job Devs on once more putting in an unneeded and bad change without asking the community. Just like you soviet air group Morale/EXP nerf out of no-where that wasnt needed.

My advice for german players is to master the opening and understand how to keep your panzers fueled and you will do really well. The patch team does not and should not continue to pile on soviet nerfs so that all players can do exceptional as the Germans. Sorry to say but learn to play, the germans are still extremely good in skilled hands.

This is odd, I had no idea? Has anybody else had this experience?

Yep, sure enough, in the 1.11.02 changelog: " [445] 41b Sapper Regiment: last year changed from 1945 to 1941, upgrade changed from 0 to [384] 41b Sapper Battalion, element 1 changed from [790] 7.62mm Machine Gun to [1501] Support, element 2 changed from [1501] Support to 0, element number 1 changed from 8 to 24, element number 2 changed from 30 to 0. "

You'd think there would have been some discussion of this. I've been innocently building Sapper Regiments in a 1.11.03 game I'm in.

The change is historically defensible. But the new Sapper Battalions were organized into brigades and further into higher-level formations called Sapper Armies. Would have been nice to simulate these.

These sappers were actually construction engineers and defensive specialists with very limited (if at all) offensive capabilities. Most of them were stationed at the western border and were overrun by the germans, most/all Sapper rgts were disbanded therefore or not recreated after loss. Soviet had to rebuild this organisation from scratch and created offensive sappers by later 1942, somewhat similar in capabilities to the german pioneers. You'll find these in the onmap Assault Engineer Brigades. A welcome side effect is stopping the sapper regiment spam some soviet players liked to operate with.

The offensive capabilities are long gone and not in question. Now with regiments gone there is no effective defensive/construction option for the soviets. Construction battalions are too small to be useful, especially with little ways of vetting up their exp and thus construction value. I agree that the old sapper regiments were too good (universal, cheap and easy to manage). Nerfing them to a solely defensive/construction unit is enough, removing them from the game is dubious. Maybe allow construction regiments instead?

The problem you don't see Denniss is that sapper spam was needed to help generate alittle extra CV power in an otherwise super weak 1941 soviet army. So you in effect removed a ton of soviet combat CV without a reduction in combat power on the German side. It was never about the combat engineer capability it was about the slight extra CV generation from 40+ additional infantry(sapper) squads and the additional construction support they give the soviet armies with leader initiative checks to support fort building.

Remember you have to balance the game to make it playable for both sides not just allow german wins. When soviets were to powerful due to, to many men- aka historical replacement rates you nerfed the amount of soviet replacements long ago to make it balanced and give the german player a chance to win. The key word is chance, so if you take away things from one side you need to balance that esp when it is obvious the game is to finely tuned in the Germans favor and has been for at least 12+ months now. I had thought it would be fixed with these recent patches but it is not.

We've had this conversation about the inability of early-war Soviet units to build fortifications, despite the historical testimony to strong Soviet fortification lines in, for example, the defenses of Moscow in December 1941. The Sapper Armies were created to organize construction of field fortifications in the early war, and they were very effective.

I think this will be improved in the next version. From what I know Denniss will use the new non-combat engineer ground element type, and will increase the number of those squads in units (so they will be good at digging). And I have discovered yesterday that Soviet digging bonus introduced in 1.08.00 was unintentionally removed in 1.08.05, so it will be back. I'd expect Soviets to be better at digging, less so at fort destruction.

You could get the cv with other support units too, if you really need it.

The last days I had the impression, you didn't know whats changed and cry for your old strategies, which doesn't work with the new changes.

Please don't kill everything because one is crying.

The standard options are with +1 anf full winter, this means, you don't need these little extra cv. The fort constructio is reduced, so you could fortified postion you need forts.

9. In land battles, in which the attacker lost, there will be no morale changes for either attacker or defender.
This helps the soviets, you could now attack with all units without the fear, the germans get extra moral.

12. Soviet units will not suffer extra losses due to damaged equipment being abandoned during failed attacks before September 1941.
This was made and you argument this in the experience thread.
...

Please don't cry for changes if you doesn't realise all the changes in the last patches.

actual:
More experience gain for soviets (huge changed)
sapper regiments (huge change)
easy digging in (huge change)

these helps the soviet side and each alon could change the balance, but all change it massiv.

Please play a actual game against good german player with +1 soviet attack, full winter and random weather.
I don't believe that this is automatic german victory.
And it is nice, that if an unexperience german player meet a veteran, you could play without +1 and mild weather and both players could enjoy a entertaining game.

Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I’ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it’s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn’t in my opinion. I’m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren’t censored they can speak their mind

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I’ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it’s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn’t in my opinion. I’m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren’t censored they can speak their mind

The Soviet +1 used to be in the game at the very beginning and was later added as an option. What makes the +1 Attack option bad is during the Winter which makes this rule over the top. IMO make the +1 attack end the last day of Nov. This would round this out rather nicely.

Secondly, the Soviets still take horrid losses. These loses are even accentuated against German PZ and Moto units. Even after the last day of August you will take these losses. Yes these are tied to the experience level of the unit so what I have done now is any unit under 30 exp I limit the TOE down to 50-60% on these low exp units & just accept these loses. The loss rate with higher experience level is a bit better but to have these horrid loses to end of August hurts when it has been said that the Soviets need to attack. I will actually have videos of my turns in the BrianG game so everyone can see the carnage that the Soviets take. I am going to look past these loss numbers to see what it does to the Germans during this game. Hopefully others will be looking too.

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Vigabrand- not sure the extra losses are removed still taking thousands of losses on even Soviet wins in the early months.

Also no Soviet support give the same CV value as sapper regiments did I’ve done tests

The next best CV Soviet support units are motorcycle regiments and tank Battalions both of which have some drawbacks for the long game- truck consumption and tank hulls u will need for tank corps.

So it’s not as cut and dried as you make it. Also really every game needs to be played with +1 Soviet bonus the game used to never require this and still shouldn’t in my opinion. I’m not alone in my opinions either ask hardluck and some of the other veteran soviets they aren’t censored they can speak their mind

I'm only afraid, that the next patch will change the balance in to much in favor of the soviets. That means, the patch after that will change it to much in axis favor and so on.
What is with the idea, that the "normal" campagne the soviets get extra manpower/armament to take such losses to gain experience and so on.
Than you need a campagne with more and one with less manpower, so that players with different experience could play interesting games against each other.

The balance issue, I had the problem, that different mind set in options means different wishes of changes.

EDIT: The ski battailon gives you in blizzard nearly 1 cv per battaillon, because the cv is three times as normal in blizzard.

only works in blizzard tho...and you cant build them until basically blizzard which means they are untrained and slagged in 1 battle...thus no CV at all really.

3x ski battalions are almost no CV for a long time till trained....and only marginal CV boost in blizzard due to lack of time to train up the brand new units.

The whole experience problem...…

ORIGINAL: chaos45

only works in blizzard tho...and you cant build them until basically blizzard which means they are untrained and slagged in 1 battle...thus no CV at all really.

3x ski battalions are almost no CV for a long time till trained....and only marginal CV boost in blizzard due to lack of time to train up the brand new units.

The whole experience problem...…

I agree with Chaos45 on this. It is pointless to build ski battalions that will take up to 6 months to be even remotely effective in the blizzard. If the Soviet could build them earlier to train up that would be nice. But to buy them right on the precipice of the blizzard to be at 15-20 experience level and gain 1 exp per turn. This is like throwing 12 year old boys into the front line against veterans. The Soviets have NO incentive to build these what-so-ever the first blizzard imo.

this means, if the ski battaillon will be availble to built at the start, this will solve the cv problem, right?

now if when built these auto had 45-50 exp...as they should as I think they picked from better units...don't think they were all new conscripts.

or maybe just maybe the patch/design team should just remove them as a build option but give the soviet player like 12 trained battalions at the start of winter.....just a thought lol

They were apparently effective in the actual war as the germans then copied it with divisions building ski companies and battalions out of what they scrap together as reserve forces for the winter and as equipment was allowed so think this was more winter 1942 on the northern part of the front.

it might if T1-2 the soviet player could find the AP to waste on units they wont use till December......as well with the experience gain being fixed they would actually be useful by then

Personnally i wonder if there is any use in building any support unit at all (At least until you can add some to increase combat value of cavalry and tank corps), and save the political point to built as much rifle brigade as possible as soon as possible.

Of course you also have to finish each turn with zero political point left in order not to pay "rebuilding unit penalty when you lost a unit" so you may need to buy some support units, but all these support units have so low CV and cause so few looses. Even the good one.

Most are so useless.
- Soviet AA is non existent.
- Soviet AT kill 3/5 tanks but german production is huge so it will not change anything.
- Soviet artillery do little damage with so few number in a support units, only division size artillery unit show a difference. (And you need a lot of them).
- soviet tanks support unit use light tanks and you lack light tanks during the whole war. And they do not do so much damage anyway.
- Sappers were at least usefull for building.
- We do not know if rocket trucks do anything. (And they are really expansive).
- Mortars at least are cheap and have lots of tube which will frighten the ennemy when he analyze the amount of guns in soviet army.

Stelteck----I would disagree on Soviet artillery SU-- I love them.

As well the PVO AA Regiment is good....100x 76mm aa guns in 1x SU added to a battle is huge.

Now these are true support units tho as you cant attach them to units later....but I still stand by 6x artillery SU and at least 1 AA regiment per army....perfect would prolly be 2 AA regiments with how much better airpower is.

As all units in the command should get those AA guns in support against directed air strikes.....and then if you get lucky the general will send a regiment into the ground battle either adding some heavy ground fire or even more deterrence vs the air.

I also really like the lowly 120mm mortar BN 36 tubes...support sucks tho....but it will be awhile before you get the 120mm mortar regiment with same tubes and like 4x the support. So poor mans cheap AP/extra heavy artillery support. I also recommend 1-2 mortar BN per army.

You want lots of support units to give the general alot of rolls and it allows a rotation of support units in alot of battles.....so if you lose a couple battles and those support units are beat up hopefully more battles against the same army will see the still fresh support units deployed. I know is a penalty for lots but with lots I find I still get several in most battles as long as the general is at least 5 Init and the HQ stationary.

I also like the rocket trucks as they are basically free aside from some AP....so even more artillery that is auto built for free each turn......I recommend building these.

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Personnally i wonder if there is any use in building any support unit at all (At least until you can add some to increase combat value of cavalry and tank corps), and save the political point to built as much rifle brigade as possible as soon as possible.

Of course you also have to finish each turn with zero political point left in order not to pay "rebuilding unit penalty when you lost a unit" so you may need to buy some support units, but all these support units have so low CV and cause so few looses. Even the good one.

Most are so useless.
- Soviet AA is non existent.
- Soviet AT kill 3/5 tanks but german production is huge so it will not change anything.
- Soviet artillery do little damage with so few number in a support units, only division size artillery unit show a difference. (And you need a lot of them).
- soviet tanks support unit use light tanks and you lack light tanks during the whole war. And they do not do so much damage anyway.
- Sappers were at least usefull for building.
- We do not know if rocket trucks do anything. (And they are really expansive).
- Mortars at least are cheap and have lots of tube which will frighten the ennemy when he analyze the amount of guns in soviet army.

Stacked AA now is "crazy", putting it nicely. I have been beating this drum and one day it will come to light with others when they figure it out.