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Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:35 pm
by MakeeLearn
"If You Still Don't Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat, Watch This Video"
"But if things continue to go as they are, and with a catapult equipped Chinese aircraft carrier, and possibly a nuclear one as well, on the horizon, the days of America's outright supremacy on and below the high-seas may be coming to an end. "
A recently published video,
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... this-video
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:06 pm
by Lokasenna
"But if things continue to go as they are, and with a catapult equipped Chinese aircraft carrier, and possibly a nuclear one as well, on the horizon, the days of America's outright supremacy on and below the high-seas may be coming to an end. "
No, not even close.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:38 pm
by durnedwolf
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
No, not even close.
yup - what he said.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:33 pm
by U235
The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:28 am
by Rusty1961
Carriers are probably obsolete in a real hot war, not in some regional conflict where the US has almost zero opposition.
The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.
73 years for the CV was a good run, but submarine technology (AIP), mines, drones, hypersonic weapons, etc., pretty much spell the doom of the big ship.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:26 am
by Yaab
Imagine if instead of all those ships, rockets, and aircraft, the Chinese would have invested heavily in small hardcore cadre of die-hard arsonists who start fires in California each summer. Cant't the Chinese learn form the Japanese fire baloons of WWWII? Just saying...
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:06 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Imagine if instead of all those ships, rockets, and aircraft, the Chinese would have invested heavily in small hardcore cadre of die-hard arsonists who start fires in California each summer. Cant't the Chinese learn form the Japanese fire baloons of WWWII? Just saying...
Glad I wasn't actually drinking my coffee when I read this. [:D]
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:07 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.
Citation needed.
Anybody can say "probably." It's one of the BS artist's favorite words. Show us some studies to back up that claim.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:12 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.
Citation needed.
Anybody can say "probably." It's one of the BS artist's favorite words. Show us some studies to back up that claim.
My own hypothesis based upon historical trends and current technologies. Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.
If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:40 pm
by rustysi
Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.
Really? I've no doubt its just around the corner.[:(]
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:12 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: rustysi
Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.
Really? I've no doubt its just around the corner.[:(]
Maybe in twenty years or so, when the only things worth fighting for are fresh water and food ... and that will be scarce. We need to figure out how to turn the extra climate heat into something we need, like electricity, so we can actually power all the electric cars we are supposed to have. Prognostication off! [8|]
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:46 pm
by Will_L
I recall that they tried to build a 747 copy without the plans forty some odd years ago,
the engines weren't powerful enough to get if off the ground so it could only putter around on the runway.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 am
by fodder
nope!
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:37 am
by USSAmerica
ORIGINAL: fodder
nope!
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:26 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.
Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:52 pm
by mind_messing
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.
Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations.
Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.
That one does cut both ways. A lot of the people that fall under that catagory spent their days preparing to halting the Great Soviet Roadtrip to Paris.
It's worth noting that while most of the relevant areas haven't changed, some (very important) things have.
ORIGINAL: U235
The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
When was the last time the USN had a modern maritime experience? Vietnam? Iran?
Even then, those conflicts don't really add up to a modern maritime experience in the slightest - brown water conflicts against second tier naval powers.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:07 pm
by Rusty1961
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.
Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.
Thank you for your sagacity, but I remember all the "Know it alls" in the military back in 2001 telling me how we'd be done with Afghanistan in a year when I was saying we'd never win.
Sorry, sometimes it takes an outsider to see a problem, not an insider.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:11 pm
by AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.
Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations.
Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.
That one does cut both ways. A lot of the people that fall under that catagory spent their days preparing to halting the Great Soviet Roadtrip to Paris.
It's worth noting that while most of the relevant areas haven't changed, some (very important) things have.
ORIGINAL: U235
The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
When was the last time the USN had a modern maritime experience? Vietnam? Iran?
Even then, those conflicts don't really add up to a modern maritime experience in the slightest - brown water conflicts against second tier naval powers.
There was a little "modern Maritime experience" from 1948 to 1991 called "The Cold War". Perhaps you have heard of it? Many of us here were part of it. Just because your city didn't get nuked doesn't mean it wasn't a real war. Many of us lost friends and family in it. I was in it from 1975 till 1991 , and just about every member of my family served in it. Plenty of others who frequent this forum also can make the same claim. BTW your right , and wrong about tonnage. Tonnage doesn't have a thing to do with sinking something , but has everything to do with endurance. And to be able to take hits and continue punching back. That hasn't changed.
I've I can I give you a bit of advice....be very, very careful how you respond. Bad mouthing "Cold war warriors" will not make you very popular with such folks. They pledge everything they had, including their lives , for their cause. They probably won't appreciate or respond well to you or anyone else replying in a way that they might find demeaning. Just saying.
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:32 pm
by mind_messing
There was a little "modern Maritime experience" from 1948 to 1991 called "The Cold War". Perhaps you have heard of it? Many of us here were part of it. Just because your city didn't get nuked doesn't mean it wasn't a real war. Many of us lost friends and family in it. I was in it from 1975 till 1991 , and just about every member of my family served in it. Plenty of others who frequent this forum also can make the same claim.
That one isn't far off thirty years in the past - long enough ago that the experience gained will be retiring out.
In any case, the Chinese should be only a slight bit behind then, having been engaged in their own regional Cold War with Taiwan and to a lesser extent thier other regional neighbours. Just because it didn't turn in to a shooting war doesn't mean it wasn't a real war, right?
I've I can I give you a bit of advice....be very, very careful how you respond. Bad mouthing "Cold war warriors" will not make you very popular with such folks. They pledge everything they had, including their lives , for their cause. They probably won't appreciate or respond well to you or anyone else replying in a way that they might find demeaning. Just saying.
It was not my intention to do so, merely to point out that things have changed with time passing, and that the experiences of denizens of this forum, in some respects, may not be as relevant today as they once were.
I don't think you can take too much umbrage to that...
RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:43 pm
by Lokasenna
Not to mention that it's not like the USN hasn't been conducting combat or combat support operations constantly, on a global basis, for literally 70 nonstop years at this point. Regardless of whether or not you are counting playing games with the Russians during the Cold War.