Matrix Games Forums

I've been playing the little ready-made night attack scenario, Winter Desolation, as Finns. Excellent scenario for beginners to learn, I think. After around 10 abandoned tries, learning the hard way all along, I finally won. But only by giving my Finns a maxed out morale and training advantage. So the AI must be pretty decent, I conclude. My losses - around 40 troops and 10 vehicles, against soviet 240 and 40 vehicles. So more or less what I've come to expect from Cold War engagements.

A few observations/suggestions about things that seemed unusual or puzzling:

1. The soviet BTR152APC seemed impervious to prolonged 7.62mm MG fire at any range. A couple of minutes of fire poured into it from multiple units never produced damage, as far as I recall. Is this correct? Surely the tires should go, at least, immobilizing it?

2. Combat was a very static affair. Once units got engaged they just seemed to remain where they were, pouring fire into each other. Maybe my setting Finnish morale so high didn't help, since they seem to have become almost suicidal, and never retreated. But the other side was the same. Is this correct? They don't assess the fight and decide if they should back-off?

3. Once all units were unloaded and engaged I found it very hard to identify which formations units belonged to, especially if they were in woods on the normal map. Much easier on the paper map. The only sure way was to click each unit and read off which formation it belonged to. I wonder if the highlighting could be more aggressive? Even better - user configurable? I am red/green colour blind (though not badly) and I'm sure this contributes. But many men are colour blind so any help with user-configurable colours/highlights etc is always very welcome.

4. Because you can only modify (with formation, SOP etc) per command chain, not per waypoint, all sorts of difficulties arise. But one stood out for me. So, if I want a formation to move asap down a road I have to give it modifiers that ensure it uses the road in an orderly way (not too close spacing, column etc), but if I want it to unload at the end, and hence make the last waypoint an unload command, those same modifiers will apply to the unload command too. Which seems to mean, as its implemented, that as soon as the first unit reaches the unload waypoint ALL units in the formation unload, wherever they are. And they can by this point be quite widely spread out. Whereas what I wanted was for them all to unload very near the unload waypoint (not round the corner 200m away, useless without a further delayed order...) I assume if I could attach different modifiers to the unload order (close spacing, line etc) then I might get what I want. So I hope this ability - to issue modifiers per waypoint - is somewhere in the pipeline. But meanwhile, could the code not be developed to make it the case that on an unload command the trigger to unload isn't that the first vehicle has reached the unload waypoint, but that all vehicles are near to it (or unload one by one as they get near to it)? This should not apply to emergency on-contact unloads, of course. Has no one else noticed this feature, I wonder? Maybe I'm wrong, but I mention it for consideration.

5. I had a CTD about once every other game (in win 10). Not bad for new game, and sadly none of them were replicable.

All in all, very enjoyable and immersive though. Hats off to Veitikka! And thanks! I hope it sells well and continues to develop.

Reference point 5, out of curiosity, did you have a lot of flares from mortars all burning at the same time. Reason being, you have jogged my memory that whilst Beta testing, I discovered that a ridiculous amount of flares burning at once gave me a CTD, by ridiculous, I mean about 40 mortars firing about 12 flares into a small area which is probably too excessive to what a scenario designer would create. Once I managed it with just a dozen flares burning, but I could never replicate it and I forgot about it.

But, maybe there could be a bug with Illum.

No, Zack. Haven't actually learned to use flares yet! The CTDs just happened when I clicked somewhere, but couldn;t get them to repeat.

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

1. The soviet BTR152APC seemed impervious to prolonged 7.62mm MG fire at any range. A couple of minutes of fire poured into it from multiple units never produced damage, as far as I recall. Is this correct? Surely the tires should go, at least, immobilizing it?

Currently the potential damage is based on the armor protection, not if the unit has tires or not.

2. Combat was a very static affair. Once units got engaged they just seemed to remain where they were, pouring fire into each other. Maybe my setting Finnish morale so high didn't help, since they seem to have become almost suicidal, and never retreated. But the other side was the same. Is this correct? They don't assess the fight and decide if they should back-off?

The infantry units do retreat. Morale is crucial here, and you don't get a message if an enemy unit retreats.

3. Once all units were unloaded and engaged I found it very hard to identify which formations units belonged to, especially if they were in woods on the normal map. Much easier on the paper map. The only sure way was to click each unit and read off which formation it belonged to. I wonder if the highlighting could be more aggressive? Even better - user configurable? I am red/green colour blind (though not badly) and I'm sure this contributes. But many men are colour blind so any help with user-configurable colours/highlights etc is always very welcome.

When the mouse cursor is on a formation flag you see cyan/red rectangles on the units. You mean you cannot see them?

4. Because you can only modify (with formation, SOP etc) per command chain, not per waypoint, all sorts of difficulties arise. But one stood out for me. So, if I want a formation to move asap down a road I have to give it modifiers that ensure it uses the road in an orderly way (not too close spacing, column etc), but if I want it to unload at the end, and hence make the last waypoint an unload command, those same modifiers will apply to the unload command too. Which seems to mean, as its implemented, that as soon as the first unit reaches the unload waypoint ALL units in the formation unload, wherever they are. And they can by this point be quite widely spread out. Whereas what I wanted was for them all to unload very near the unload waypoint (not round the corner 200m away, useless without a further delayed order...) I assume if I could attach different modifiers to the unload order (close spacing, line etc) then I might get what I want. So I hope this ability - to issue modifiers per waypoint - is somewhere in the pipeline. But meanwhile, could the code not be developed to make it the case that on an unload command the trigger to unload isn't that the first vehicle has reached the unload waypoint, but that all vehicles are near to it (or unload one by one as they get near to it)? This should not apply to emergency on-contact unloads, of course. Has no one else noticed this feature, I wonder? Maybe I'm wrong, but I mention it for consideration.

I don't see how this could be implemented. If you have a 500 meter wide company how can all of them be unloaded close to the same point?

5. I had a CTD about once every other game (in win 10). Not bad for new game, and sadly none of them were replicable.

The game was played in a live stream recently, for 6 hours, including this scenario, without any crashes. I think it depends very much on the system. No crashes in any of the Twitch streams, as far as I know.

Thanks Veitikka. Yes, I can't see the highlighting too well. Most especially when they're in buildings or in forests on the normal map. Might just be my eyes though.....

As for the 500m wide company point - I would need to provide images, I think, to demonstrate my point, because the impact depends upon the particular terrain and I feel that the unload trigger doesn't take that into account. Sure, unload over a wide spread if you're in clear terrain (don't bunch up) - but if you're strung out along a road and the last unit unloads 500m back around a corner screened by a hill and trees then unloading there isn't so useful. Also, I'm talking about sections and platoons, not companies, that unload in places that make them relatively useless (to the plan) without further orders, which incur delay. But I suppose my question to you is - is the trigger to unload fired when the first unit reaches the unload waypoint, or not? If not then it's a different issue and I will watch out for it and post further. If that IS the trigger then it takes no account of how strung out a column has become and over what terrain and can lead to unintended results, I think.

Thanks.

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

But I suppose my question to you is - is the trigger to unload fired when the first unit reaches the unload waypoint, or not? If not then it's a different issue and I will watch out for it and post further. If that IS the trigger then it takes no account of how strung out a column has become and over what terrain and can lead to unintended results, I think.

Each unit in the formation with the 'unload' command starts unloading on its own, after the individual unit has reached its own destination waypoint. They are not triggered simultaneously after the first unit has reached the waypoint.

1) The tires are 'run-flat'. The vehicle is capable of driving several tens of miles with all of the tires completely flat. I do think infantry are a little over zealous firing at light armored vehicles. They don't have the ammunition to waste, and they should cease fire.

2) Generally, once units are engaged, it is more dangerous to fall back than to remain where you are. Falling back requires you to expose yourself, and since units have generally positioned themselves in a depression or inside a structure, moving back will require them to move on higher terrain or into an open street/field which is more exposed to enemy fire.

3) I think more could be done to distinguish the formations. I would like to see an option on each subunit where you can click and select the entire formation. A colored bar along the edge of the icon would also be helpful.

I would like to see an option on each subunit where you can click and select the entire formation.

Just click on the formation flag. And if any have red borders, just use the command "Reattach".


Regarding small arms destroying armored vehicles, in my last two battles, I had a BMD destroyed in both of them and listed as from an infantry section using "Ball". But I can never recall it happening before but may never have noticed it. But, maybe they had both been damaged by other weapon systems previously and just needed to be hit by a few hundred 5.56mm rounds to finish the job off at very close range.