Matrix Games Forums

Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?

Game file

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?

No, Guderian cannot use a Rail Supply path to Rundstedt, a secondary supply source. Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere. Of course, any supply path (including a rail supply path) can be traced overseas, but only once.

That said, I beleive Guderian should be in supply!

1 hex to the Rail, NW of Guderian. Then by rail via Delhi to Calcutta. Then by Sea via Bay of Bengal, South China Sea, China Sea, Sea of Japan, to Vladivostok (2nd Hex). Continuing by rail from Vladivostok, all the way back to Germany.

The reason, I suspect why it isn't working, is perhaps it's trying to use the same rail path as Rundstedt. (hit F8 and you can check this). It, for some reason, lands it's sea supply leg in Foochow, and then uses its 4 hex limit overland to a rail hex near Nanchang! If the program is trying to use this same supply path for Guderian it will be to far, as Guderian only has a 2 hex supply path limit due to rain. I suspect the code has an internal limit as to how long (or how far) it checks for valid supply paths, for reasons of game speed and performance, and given your particular situation its exceeding this limit.

Brian.

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Quick question - why can't Guderian trace supply to Rundstedt (who is in supply)?

I imagined it would be From Guderian (Supply Range 2), tracing one to the rail NW of him. Then it follows the rail to Rundstedt, who is in supply through Kabul and another HQ to Russia.

Is it that Germany can't trace through Japanese territory? Or is this a bug?

No, Guderian cannot use a Rail Supply path to Rundstedt, a secondary supply source. Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere. Of course, any supply path (including a rail supply path) can be traced overseas, but only once.

That said, I beleive Guderian should be in supply!

1 hex to the Rail, NW of Guderian. Then by rail via Delhi to Calcutta. Then by Sea via Bay of Bengal, South China Sea, China Sea, Sea of Japan, to Vladivostok (2nd Hex). Continuing by rail from Vladivostok, all the way back to Germany.

The reason, I suspect why it isn't working, is perhaps it's trying to use the same rail path as Rundstedt. (hit F8 and you can check this). It, for some reason, lands it's sea supply leg in Foochow, and then uses its 4 hex limit overland to a rail hex near Nanchang! If the program is trying to use this same supply path for Guderian it will be to far, as Guderian only has a 2 hex supply path limit due to rain. I suspect the code has an internal limit as to how long (or how far) it checks for valid supply paths, for reasons of game speed and performance, and given your particular situation its exceeding this limit.

Brian.

I agree that the problem is an internal limit, but I suspect the problem is the Transsiberian railroad. MWiF does not like tracing supply the whole length of it. I have had problems with the US not being able to trace to a French city along the railroad after Germany was conquered.

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I agree that the problem is an internal limit, but I suspect the problem is the Transsiberian railroad. MWiF does not like tracing supply the whole length of it. I have had problems with the US not being able to trace to a French city along the railroad after Germany was conquered.

Must be very marginal then, as that's pretty much how Rundstedt is tracing its supply path, albeit, not through Vlad, but via Manchuria, no reason why Guderian couldn't use this same path either, just not through Foochow, the way Rundstedt has. The example I gave, was one of many possibilities.

Brian.

Maybe the program has started reading Man in the High Castle

Once you start tracing supply by rail you have to trace it to a Primary Supply source somewhere.

Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.

As a check:
Through nefarious methods, I teleported Guderian two hexes Northeast, directly onto the rail line but still in the wet (2 hex basic path limit). At that point, he should be able to trace supply to any Indian port, to China/Manchuria/Vladivostok, and back to German civilization - but he's still out of supply.

-----

BrianBrian, yea, it's getting dicey for survival of the Allies. Poor Allied support of Russia, combined with half the BEF at Dunkirk, a few bad rolls in Egypt, and unlucky early weather in China... The Japanese fleet now for the first time though has to face the full American carrier fleet; they had uncontested supremacy in the Pacific long enough to very nearly put India out as you can see. Japanese and Italian navies have fought together more than once! Last turn the Japanese had exceptionally bad search rolls (4 misses on a 5 or less), or a few more British carriers might have been put to bed on the Indian Ocean seafloor.

It's a bug. Guderian should be able to trace to supply using the Japanese convoys and than across China/USSR to Germany...

I suppose I'll edit in a Supply Unit too for now....

I think with Germans and Japanese extending hands of greeting across a river in India, most likely the secret "game balancing" code has been activated...

I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).

I recall that as well and that it was 60, as the objective was not to have super-lengthy supply calculation times. That number may have changed as Steve did optimize a lot of the lengthy times out of the code.

ORIGINAL: Orm

I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).

I don't think this code is live... I had Manstein in Krasnoyarsk (!) and he was in supply.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I think with Germans and Japanese extending hands of greeting across a river in India, most likely the secret "game balancing" code has been activated...

I think this is a much more likely reason! [:D] [X(]

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

ORIGINAL: Orm

I think that there is a limit on the number of hexes/sea areas that may be used for a primary (rail) supply link. I seem to recall that the limit was 60 hexes (or sea areas). But that was a long time ago and the number might have changed (or I might remember wrongly).

I don't think this code is live... I had Manstein in Krasnoyarsk (!) and he was in supply.

Could Manstein have traced a sea route to the west first?

No, the west is not quite there. Arabian sea is still CW dominated, just barely, and the route through Afghanistan I was counting on apparently doesn't work when you can only use one rail route.

Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.

Just checked with 3.0.2.1, and the "German logistics command recommended" supply route through Foochow still seems to be in place. Seriously limits the German fun in India.

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

Wow, that makes the Germans lucky they could link up to the Japanese so quickly with only one supply unit... I missed that a tertiary supply line can't use any rails. Luck of fools for the Germans, except the bug!

The million dollar question, why Foochow and not Kwangngai, Canton, Hong Kong, or Vladivostok? That's rhetorical i guess - so this is the bug.

Just checked with 3.0.2.1, and the "German logistics command recommended" supply route through Foochow still seems to be in place. Seriously limits the German fun in India.

Since Rundstedt has to use 3 non-rail moves to reach primary supply, it is only because he is in Fine weather that he can trace rail supply. Guderian is in Rain and only has 2 non-rail hexes available for tracing rail supply.

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.

But why would it route through Foochow instead of, say, Shanghai which puts them in supply?

I've added another zipfile with the current situation (I've only played a turn since then), which should again be routing through Shanghai, or Canton, or Seoul, or Port Arthur, or Tsingtao... not Foochow...[X(] Why is the program routing through the worst possible port?

Running version 3.0.4 now.

ORIGINAL: Gar-Dog

The program is correct and length of path is not an issue in this case.

But why would it route through Foochow instead of, say, Shanghai which puts them in supply?

I've added another zipfile with the current situation (I've only played a turn since then), which should again be routing through Shanghai, or Canton, or Seoul, or Port Arthur, or Tsingtao... not Foochow...[X(] Why is the program routing through the worst possible port?

Running version 3.0.4 now.

Apparently your attachment with the new saved game was lost in the recent problems Matrix/Slitherine had with their database. When I try to download it I get a message that the file was not found.

If you reload it, I'll take another look.

Attached here.