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I'm in negotiations to start a campaign game (stock scenario 1) with my current Guadalcanal opponent. I'll be Yamamoto; he'll be Nimitz/MacArthur/Mountbatten. He wants to play non-historical start with Dec 7 surprise OFF.

My pre-start questions for all the JFBs out there -

1) Do I even attempt a Pearl Harbor strike?

The somewhat normal restriction that no Allied units move on turn 1 would sort of defeat the purpose of having surprise off. So, how much do I let him move (thru house rules)? I'm stuck with all the subs around Hawaii; I can't teleport them to another port, so they're there to harass whatever naval sortees he sends out from Pearl. Then go elsewhere.

2) I was thinking about shifting the main attack in China from the axis north toward Sian to a left swing around Changsha then north to Chungking. Obviously, the rail line through Chengchow-Sinyang needs to be cleared so I can use it, but he can sit in the woods south of Sian while I employ economy of force there and move most units south and west. My thought is to get to Chungking before his destroyed units respawn.

3) What about a CV strike on Manila or Singapore? Manila is a good option if he can't move naval assets on turn 1 cause I can take out a bunch of subs and reduce the thundering herd trying to flee. But, if he sortees the subs it may not be that good of an idea. A strike on Singapore could do a good deal of damage to the planes and airfield, and also would put the KB in position to take out PoW and Repulse. I'd like to do an early landing at Singkawang and Palembang and get transports around Singapore to the west coast of Malaya. Having ships at Alor Star opens options for early moves on Port Blair, Medan, Rangoon, etc.

Any thoughts?

Why Dec 7th surprise off? I don't think that's fair and would love to hear the reason.

I think its the most fair choice possible.

It's playing a December 7th start WITH surprise that is unfair.


Its allowing the Japanese player the ahistorical possibility of attacking anywhere he pleases with the impunity "surprise" imparts that is inherently unfair to the Allied player.

Japanese players who want 'surprise' for the opening should be tied to the historical opening.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I think its the most fair choice possible.

It's playing a December 7th start WITH surprise that is unfair.


Its allowing the Japanese player the ahistorical possibility of attacking anywhere he pleases with the impunity "surprise" imparts that is inherently unfair to the Allied player.

Japanese players who want 'surprise' for the opening should be tied to the historical opening.

I normally agree with you Hans, but in this case I do not. I feel that the first turn surprise on is to model that the Allies were not prepared for an attack, no matter where it might fall.

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
Any thoughts?

1) no point in PH bombing if no surprise. Flak and CAP would take out a considerable number of your elite pilots. And you will bag 1 BB on average (taking into account worse aim and fewer striking planes). Manila is preferable cause you can sweep with LBA, and subs are way more dangerous for the first 2 years than PH BBs. Given that subs do not sortie, otherwise Manila is pointless.

2) You are way too optimistic. China is a long slog if the Allied player does it right, that is camps the high ground. You can take Changsha early yes, but then x3 terrain kicks in. Also, the best way to strike Sian is from the east, to capitalize on roads and main Chinese forces in the north out of position at the start.

3) If you bring KB to the South China Sea you have no reason to not do a full-fledged Mersing gambit. Early Singapore is better than early Port Blair, Medan, Rangoon, etc.

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
Any thoughts?

3) If you bring KB to the South China Sea you have no reason to not do a full-fledged Mersing gambit. Early Singapore is better than early Port Blair, Medan, Rangoon, etc.

This is exactly what I mean. How do the Japanese maintain surprise while invading Mersing?

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Why Dec 7th surprise off? I don't think that's fair and would love to hear the reason.

Here's his reason (copied from his email) -

"So I would like to play without using December 7th surprise.
Why?
Well I have always been of the view that the "surprise" on December 7th (and December 8th for MacArthur) was cleverly contrived American propaganda to deflect from the incompetence of the military and naval commanders in Hawaii and the Philippines. I don't want to be locked in to their mistakes. Thus you can attack wherever you wish but I can be better on guard overall.
(Everyone at the highest levels of command knew war with both Germany & Japan was imminent. In fact America was in a limited de facto war with Germany & Italy already.)
It will make for a more interesting game."

He's right, it will be a more interesting game. It also might be a lot shorter than 4 years!

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
Any thoughts?

1) no point in PH bombing if no surprise. Flak and CAP would take out a considerable number of your elite pilots. And you will bag 1 BB on average (taking into account worse aim and fewer striking planes). Manila is preferable cause you can sweep with LBA, and subs are way more dangerous for the first 2 years than PH BBs. Given that subs do not sortie, otherwise Manila is pointless.

2) You are way too optimistic. China is a long slog if the Allied player does it right, that is camps the high ground. You can take Changsha early yes, but then x3 terrain kicks in. Also, the best way to strike Sian is from the east, to capitalize on roads and main Chinese forces in the north out of position at the start.

3) If you bring KB to the South China Sea you have no reason to not do a full-fledged Mersing gambit. Early Singapore is better than early Port Blair, Medan, Rangoon, etc.

I agree completely with your point 1.

I guess I wasn't real clear about China. I wouldn't try to take Changsha, although if he pulls a Sir Robin or allows me to encircle it, it could be done. I would put enough AV in Changsha that he could not push me out (usually about half his strength works), then capture Hengyang southwest of Changsha and open the RR west to Liuchow and north to Tuyun toward Chungking. That supply line is a little tenuous, but I think it will work.

Early is relative. A full Mersing gambit could see Singapore fall by the end of December (vs February historically). Having transports at Alor Star allows Port Blair and Medan to be captured in December/January (vs March historically). I would also plan invasion of Palembang in late December or early January, not wait until Singapore falls.

ORIGINAL: BillBrown
I normally agree with you Hans, but in this case I do not. I feel that the first turn surprise on is to model that the Allies were not prepared for an attack, no matter where it might fall.

Even then you can implement restrictions on things like a Mersing Gambit (which I agree would have been spotted well before any attack) while retaining the suprise mechanic. The fact of the matter is the Allies and, in particular, the Americans were caught flat-footed despite multiple many early warning signs, most inexplicably in the Philippines, and in my view this can be seen as a form of organizational inertia that it would be ahistoric and unrealistic to wish away just because your opponent doesn't want to be hamstrung by the bad decisions of the US Army/Navy. Nimitz wasn't the admiral till AFTER Pearl Harbor.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
Any thoughts?

3) If you bring KB to the South China Sea you have no reason to not do a full-fledged Mersing gambit. Early Singapore is better than early Port Blair, Medan, Rangoon, etc.

This is exactly what I mean. How do the Japanese maintain surprise while invading Mersing?

Isn't the Mersing Gambit surprise? My opponent has not played this game extensively, and although he reads some of the stuff on this forum, I don't know if he knows what the Mersing Gambit is. It would certainly be a surprise if the KB and 8 battleships showed up off Singapore on Dec 7, followed by 2 divisions landing at Mersing on Dec 8. The only reason, in my mind, the Japanese landed at Singora and Patani is they are in Thailand, an ally. And they are not close to the British naval base at Singapore. And also within LBA range from Indochina bases.

Here is my proposal for house rules, many addressing what the Allies may do on Dec 7:

Naval Restrictions
Only 1 PT boat (or MTB, MGB, ML, etc) TF allowed per base limited to 6 ships.
Only 1 other defensive surface TF allowed per base, with no limit on the number of ships. So, a base may be defended by 2 naval TFs, 1 PT and 1 other, plus submarines.
No limit on submarines.

Dec 7 (Allies only)
• Naval combatants in port may form TFs and sortie up to 3 hexes from their base. Reaction may be set.
• TFs at sea will continue their current mission, but the mission, reaction setting, and destination may NOT be changed. For example, Force Z will continue north to Singora. This includes submarine TFs.
• TFs at sea but defending a port (CA Houston, RAN TF at Sydney, and others) may not change mission or reaction, and may NOT sortie unless reacting to a threat.
• Loaded transports/tankers may unload at their current base or continue their current mission if at sea.
• Transports/tankers in port may NOT form TFs nor load or unload anything.

Dec 7 (Japanese)
The Japanese will not attack the CV Lexington or Enterprise TFs. They may be attacked on Dec 8, or later.

Ground Force Restrictions
See Political Points

Dec 7 (these apply to both sides)
• Settings for upgrade and replacement may not be changed, except in China.
• Fortifications may not be started, except in China. Port and airfield construction may start everywhere.
• Allied ground units may not move, except in China.


Air Force Restrictions

CAP altitude is limited to 20k in 1941, 1942; 25k in 1943; and 30k in 1944, 1945.
4E bombers may not bomb troops below 10k.
There are no restrictions on strategic bombing.

Dec 7 (except China)
• Allies may only fly search, ASW, naval attack, CAP, and transport missions.
• Allies may not recon or attack Japanese airfields, ports, or troops.

Bases

On Dec 7 fortifications may not be started, except in China. Port and airfield construction may start.


Leaders

No leader may be changed on Dec 7 by the Allies.

Political Points

PP must be spent to change the HQ of restricted air and ground units before they move out of their national territory. Manchuria is considered a national territory for this rule. US and Canadian units may freely move between those 2 countries.
Air HQ may not change HQ unless all of their assigned squadrons, chutai, sentai, etc. have already been individually changed.

Dec 7 (Allies only) - No Political Points may be expended.

Additions, deletions, comments?

This will be hard to do:

Only 1 PT boat (or MTB, MGB, ML, etc) TF allowed per base limited to 6 ships.

When you click on the add PT boats button a TF of 12 will appear.

Other than that all I can say is Wow, not for me.

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

This will be hard to do:

Only 1 PT boat (or MTB, MGB, ML, etc) TF allowed per base limited to 6 ships.

When you click on the add PT boats button a TF of 12 will appear.

Other than that all I can say is Wow, not for me.

Then 6 of them will have to be disbanded into the port and will become available when the first 6 are destroyed. How many PT boats do you want to fight thru before your troops can land? I'll have to take the Wee Willie Keeler approach - hit 'em where they ain't.

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
How many PT boats do you want to fight thru before your troops can land?

The usual HR to prevent TF spam abuse is to make PTs operate in flotillas of min[6,every pt in hex]. Pools are limited and CL/DD TFs clear PTs just fine. So no need for over-restrictive and annoying TF-number-watch

I really do not understand this one:

CAP altitude is limited to 20k in 1941, 1942; 25k in 1943; and 30k in 1944, 1945.
4E bombers may not bomb troops below 10k.
There are no restrictions on strategic bombing.

Does that mean that there is no limit on the altitude of Sweep missions?

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I really do not understand this one:

CAP altitude is limited to 20k in 1941, 1942; 25k in 1943; and 30k in 1944, 1945.
4E bombers may not bomb troops below 10k.
There are no restrictions on strategic bombing.

Does that mean that there is no limit on the altitude of Sweep missions?

I overlooked that - probably should read fighter altitude is limited as stated. So, sweeps, CAP, naval attack would all be limited to the stated altitude. My bad.

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
How many PT boats do you want to fight thru before your troops can land?

The usual HR to prevent TF spam abuse is to make PTs operate in flotillas of min[6,every pt in hex]. Pools are limited and CL/DD TFs clear PTs just fine. So no need for over-restrictive and annoying TF-number-watch

To make sure I understand your comment, you're saying PT TFs should have a minimum of 6, not a maximum?

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer
How many PT boats do you want to fight thru before your troops can land?

The usual HR to prevent TF spam abuse is to make PTs operate in flotillas of min[6,every pt in hex]. Pools are limited and CL/DD TFs clear PTs just fine. So no need for over-restrictive and annoying TF-number-watch

To make sure I understand your comment, you're saying PT TFs should have a minimum of 6, not a maximum?

Yep, minimum 6 PTs in one TF. Less only if there is less than 6 PTs in the hex in total, and then all of them go in one TF. The abuse is to have single-PT TFs expending action points of incoming forces.

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

The usual HR to prevent TF spam abuse is to make PTs operate in flotillas of min[6,every pt in hex]. Pools are limited and CL/DD TFs clear PTs just fine. So no need for over-restrictive and annoying TF-number-watch

To make sure I understand your comment, you're saying PT TFs should have a minimum of 6, not a maximum?

Yep, minimum 6 PTs in one TF. Less only if there is less than 6 PTs in the hex in total, and then all of them go in one TF. The abuse is to have single-PT TFs expending action points of incoming forces.

OK, got it, and I agree.

We have finalized the house rules and his naval forces will have some freedom of action on Dec 7. I suspect Force Z will bug out rather than be lost.

The Allies have the option to sortie naval forces from Pearl Harbor, but only 3 hexes. I would expect 1 TF (4 BB) to sortie to the point where the KB usually attacks. He might sortie another, also 4 BB to some other point near PH. He can provide LRCAP for these out to 5 hexes, but he'd have to split the LRCAP if he split his BB force. It's unlikely that he'll return CV Enterprise to PH, as 6 on 1 (or even 4 on 1) would not work out too well for Enterprise. But, in the long run using my CVs to attack Singapore is less risky than against PH. PH might work out great, but it's more likely that it might not work at all, especially if he sorties south to just get out of Dodge. A move on Singapore has the benefit of supporting a full scale Mersing Gambit. Prince of Wales and Repulse will likely survive (he keeps talking about not making the mistakes the Allies made), so I expect they will run. BB Kongo and Haruna will protect the Kota Bharu landing on Dec 7, and can move south to cover a Mersing landing on Dec 8 or 9. Doing Mersing on Dec 7 is too risky, in my view. I would probably want a landing at Kuantan sooner rather than later for the airfield. In any event, an Air HQ will be needed at Kota Bharu to interdict naval traffic up and down the Malacca Strait.

Any thoughts?

Edit to clarify - I was thinking instead of attacking PH on Dec 7, I would move the KB to about 10 hexes north. Only his Bolos and B-17's could attack KB, and if his surface forces moved out north, they would be in range of my carrier planes. Might get lucky and sink something. But, that's a big IF. He might sit pat or move out to the south. Then I would have KB out of position for nothing. So, I'm settled on doing Singapore with 4 CV, while the other 2 join Ryujo east of Luzon for an attack on Manila, and hope for Houston to get in range. He'll have freedom to move Houston, Boise, and the Marblehead TF, but I suspect they will run and hide. He is also allowed to sortie the subs from Manila, so there will be interference on the west coast of Luzon from them, but not on the east coast. It's only one day - how much difference could it make?