Matrix Games Forums

Lots and lots of classes, so ultimately several posts and less graphics. Sorry.[;)]


Here are the leftovers from WW1...shortish range & weak guns, but the Clemson can upgrade into many variants. The APD is useful for fast transport, 180 troop capacity. The DE gives a potent early ASW plaftform. However, Allied eventually gets plentiful ASW and I think the APD is the better long term bang for the buck. I am not sure the Allies need the minesweeping of the AVD versions. YMMV.

Please note there is a 60% Dud rate on those torpedoes at game start. Jan of 43 they drop by 20% and September of 43 drop to 10%.





Interesting story about the Ward and her Captain...
December 7, 1941
Early in the morning of December 7, 1941, the Ward, while on patrol near the entrance to Pearl Harbor, was alerted by the cargo ship Antares (AG-10) to the presence of a Japanese midget submarine attempting to infiltrate into the harbor entrance. The Ward opened fire with her number three deck gun, then dropped depth charges, and sank the submarine. Outerbridge's radio reports were discounted by senior officers at naval headquarters despite his efforts to emphasize that there could be no mistake, sending a second report with more explicit detail: "We have attacked, fired upon, and dropped depth charges upon submarine operating in defensive sea area." This happened just 70 minutes before the Japanese naval air forces commenced their attacks on Pearl Harbor. The action by the Ward's crew was thus the first naval action by U.S. forces in World War II, and the gun that fired the first shot was installed as a memorial at the Minnesota State Capitol in Saint Paul, Minnesota. The midget submarine the Ward sank that morning was finally located in August 2002 in 1,300 feet (400 m) of water just outside Pearl Harbor.[5]

For this action Outerbridge was subsequently awarded the Navy Cross.[6]

World War II
From 1942 Outerbridge worked at the Office of the Chief of Naval Transportation in Washington, D.C.,[2] before being given command of the destroyer O'Brien (DD-725) in June 1944.[7]

On D-Day the O'Brien stood off the coast of Normandy, and helped protect Allied forces landing on the beaches, by using her guns to attack German defenses near the landing zones. Later the O'Brien performed a similar action off the French port of Cherbourg as Allied ground forces captured the city.[8]

Outerbridge and the O'Brien were then reassigned to the Pacific Fleet to participate in the liberation of the Philippines. In a strange twist of fate, on December 7, 1944, during the landings at Leyte Gulf, Outerbridge was ordered to use the O'Brien's deck guns to sink the Ward, which had been severely damaged in a Japanese kamikaze attack.[8]

The Porter and then the Somers were big, 1850 ton, destroyers designed to counter Japan's large destroyers and be flotilla leaders. They have great guns that are very accurate, and eventually down the upgrade path get the Mark 37 fire control guns that Fletchers have and also can lose their torpedo mounts in favor of more AA. They also lose a gun mount too.

It is interesting to note that the original 5" guns were anti surface only, and in the game they are listed in the naval guns section of Tracker despite being shown as AA capable in the graphic. I wonder if this was a game balancing decision or simple oversight or perhaps their original guns don't fire on planes (but it sure looks like they do from the graphic). Something isn't kosher, there.

The sluggers! These are great surface combatants. The Fletchers were designed to overcome dissatisfaction of the Porter/Mahan class of flotilla leaders while the Sumner class was an improvement on the Fletcher (added dual rudders to improve on ASW and more) while the Gearing was a lengthened Sumner. There is still a handful of Gearings around, and I think one was still in active duty till 2014 (the others are in mothballs are are museum ships).

AA improves with upgrades, and there is even an AA variant for them.

Put four of these ships in a surface action group with low threat, and they can take on anything in the IJN! At flank speed they have incredible reach, and can easily be LRCAP'd with some long legged fighters. They are big enough to clear mines the old fashioned way and not sink and small enough to repair damage quickly. They can take at least 2 hits from most kamikazes, but they are incredibly difficult to hit.

Fletchers have the best deck armor, and can bounce IJN destroyer rounds very easily.

Japan really has no counters to these ships. Maybe cruisers, but Japan usually doesn't have enough of them. I have had good luck with the Lilly IIb divebomber (100kg sap x2) as it has the range to hit them while they are getting in position for a raid. Jills can work too. Most other planes lack the range or are required for other duties.

These destroyers are good at everything, but I think they are best used as raiders darting in and out.

Only 60% torp duds for DD torps? I thought it was the same as sub-launched torps - 80%?

Absolutely.[:)]

If the dud rate improvements are the same as for sub torpedoes, on Jan 1, 1943 the dud rate should drop BY %20, then drop TO %10 in Sept (end of the month?) of '43. So the rates for the DD fish would be %60, %40, %10.

6.4.2.1 NOTE ON TORPEDO DUDS
In January 1943, all torpedoes with a dud rate of greater than 49 have their dud rates reduced
by 20. In September 1943, all torpedoes with an adjusted dud rate greater than 20 have their
dud rates lowered to 10. Allied torpedoes were notoriously inefficient in the early stages of the
Pacific War, and this rule reflects their slow but steady improvement over the years.
Note: if the Realism option “Reliable USN Torpedoes” (see
section 2.4.7) is selected, this rule does not apply – no
torpedoes will have dud rates higher than 10%

Thanks for the replies guys! I find it hard to memorize all that stuff because I get to use torps so rarely (except for sub-launched ones).

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
It is interesting to note that the original 5" guns were anti surface only, and in the game they are listed in the naval guns section of Tracker despite being shown as AA capable in the graphic. I wonder if this was a game balancing decision or simple oversight or perhaps their original guns don't fire on planes (but it sure looks like they do from the graphic). Something isn't kosher, there.

Hello Lowpe.

The 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR is a ‘Naval” Gun, Device Type 18, Slot 1627.
The are, in order:
5in/38 Mk12 OP – open pedestal, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1622
5in/38 Mk12 OP(S) – open pedestal, single, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1623
5in/38 Mk12 EBR – enclosed base ring, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1624 (twin turret, BB, CA, CV, etc))
5in/38 Mk12 SEBR – enclosed base ring, single, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1625 (single turret)
5in/38 Mk12 OBR – open base ring, type 17 (dual purpose) slot 1626 (unshielded turret type, Benson Gleaves mounts 3 & 4, etc)
5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR – single purpose enclosed base ring, type 18 (naval), slot 1627

Porter and Somers had the Mk 22 Mod 0, twin EBR mount. Very light; ~34,000 kg vs ~43,000 to 53,000 kg for the Mk 38 and Mk 32 mounts, respectively, on the Sumner/Gearing DDs and CV/CA/CLs, again respectively.

Elevation: -15/+85 degrees, Twin Mounts Mk 28, Mk 29, Mk 32, Mk 38 (all except Mk 22)
Elevation: -10/+35 degrees, Twin Mount Mk 22

Elevation Rate: 15 degrees per second, Mk 28, 29, 32, 38
Elevation Rate: 11.5 degrees per second, Mk 22

Train Rate: 25 degrees per second, Mk 28, 29, 32, 38
Train Rate: 14.7 degrees per second, Mk 22

The Mk 22 was an excellent naval mount. Its lower mass (moment of inertia) combined with adapted gun trunion placement, allowed for the greater slew rate horizontally, and vertically, given the same actuator motor HP.

Should be noted that the Porter/Somers series were the only vessels that got these mounts. Not sure what your tracker thing is showing, but the database has them tagged and typed as described, above. Matt

So, does the SP EBR shoot at airplanes in the game? In tracker it is listed as a naval gun which means that it doesn't. However, in the graphic it has an asterisk, which means it does, and also the AA rating is 320 which means it must since the 1.1 AA guns and 50 calibers can't add nearly that much AA by themselves.

My understanding is that the SP EBR in reality had no AA ability.

I'm still trying to figure out what a "Desteroyer" is [&:]


[:D]

AFAIK, the Porter's having DP capability in game is a balance decision.

Some of the IJN DD's have main guns with DP capability. Using these IJN guns in the anti-aircraft role was possible in theory but very difficult in reality.

The Porter's seems to follow this logic.

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I'm still trying to figure out what a "Desteroyer" is [&:]


[:D]

They are made of aluminium.

early war APDs are best, the most useful small ship for the Allies

at this stage of the war, you want to avoid surface engagements (except surprise ambushes of amphibious TFs)

but you still want to raid, or quickly move small LCUs from place to place; and of course you lack the early war amph bonus or the specialized tools that would come back much later

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, does the SP EBR shoot at airplanes in the game? In tracker it is listed as a naval gun which means that it doesn't. However, in the graphic it has an asterisk, which means it does, and also the AA rating is 320 which means it must since the 1.1 AA guns and 50 calibers can't add nearly that much AA by themselves.

My understanding is that the SP EBR in reality had no AA ability.

The game classifies the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR (Device #1627) as a type 17 weapon. It is therefore a DP gun.

Alfred

Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

It is a type 17 weapon in scenario 1.
 
Alfred

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

Woops, yeah, I was thinking in terms of Babes. I know they pulled a lot of Babes database stuff over for the last official update and thought they got the 5in/38 stuff, too. Sorry about that.

If it is a DP gun (type 17) it really should be changed to a type 18. AA gun with 35 degree elevation? Hmmmm

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Is everyone talking about the same scenario/mod here when describing the 5in/38 Mk12 SP EBR? I see one reference to it as a type 17 weapon, and one to it as a type 18 weapon in the same Device slot, #1627.

Woops, yeah, I was thinking in terms of Babes. I know they pulled a lot of Babes database stuff over for the last official update and thought they got the 5in/38 stuff, too. Sorry about that.

If it is a DP gun (type 17) it really should be changed to a type 18. AA gun with 35 degree elevation? Hmmmm

Its a game, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate.[:)]

Fletchers have the best deck armor, and can bounce IJN destroyer rounds very easily.

The Fletchers and Gearings are the only DD's in the game that get either belt or deck armour.

In my experience it makes a big difference in close range engagements. DD's without armour can get chewed up by automatic AA weapons, but the Fletcher (and Gearings to a much lesser extent) are immune.

More specifically, the IJN 25mm Type 96 AA gun has a pen value of 15, less than the Fletcher's belt armour value of 18.