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Aside from the pre-war naval aviators. I dont recall any true
elite force that Japan fielded. I could of course be wrong.

Anyone have better info?

I'm not sure they had any elite units, but officers were considered of the Samurai class and therefore 'elite' men.

Also, kamikazes and suicide attackers might be considered by the Japanese as 'elite', in a twisted sort of way.

I really don't know if they had units that were considered "elite", I suppose it depends on your definition of what constitutes an elite unit. They certainly had troops that were very experienced, and some that might have recieved special training. To that degree, I'm sure you could say that some of their formations were considered elite.

But as to if they had units like "Raider Battalions" (as mentioned in other thread, SLNF were NOT comparable to Marines much less MRBs), I don't know to read a -REAL- Japanese order of battle, so I can't really say.

-F-

Well I dont recall ever reading any Japanese claim that a specific unit was elite...except...an oblique reference to the unit
that was slated to take Midway, but ended up dying on
Guadalcanal.

I do recall 'ALLIED' statements about Jap units being elite.

I wish I could read Japanese.

http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/snlf/snlf.html

The real SNLF might be considered elite...sometimes other naval ground forces are generalized as SNFL when they really weren't. SNLF were also trained in airborne ops.

The Japanese Army had been fighting for ten years before Pearl Harbor so the bulk of their forces were already experienced. Coupled with the fact that officers were imbued with the code of the Samurai, most of their units were above average. they might not have a "Ranger" category but many of the units in the Pacific fought to the death. That deserves sort of an elite status.

As with most other units, it depends on the specific unit. Some SNLF were as described above, "sailors with guns", others were more thoroughly trained and could be considered equivilent to US Marines.

Same is true to lesser degree with the Marines themselves. They were not all of a piece and in fact, the 1st Marine division that assaulted Guadalcanal had to fill out to the required strength by taking in a considerable number of green drafts so the "universal" elite exp ratings usually given to all Marine divisions is not completely accurate. reminds me of a debate once waged on the SP:WAW forum that revolved around that very question.

Where the Marines truely hold the edge was in that they were a dedicated and larger organization, under the Navy with a definate doctornal and training base wheras the SNLF was more of a hodge podge organization where one unit might be well versed in amphib warefare but the next might just be as mentioned.....sailors with guns. Thus as a "whole" the Marine corp was a superior org.

That being said, the Japanese did study amphib tactics and did help pioneer some of the basics. IIRC, they were the first navy to build a dedicated amphibious assault ship as well. But as with so many other facets of a war in an industrial age....they did not have the resources to devote to such a branch as did the US and as the war progressed left in the dust as the Marine corp developed and pefected mass amphib tactics using the latest designs and supported by mass naval air and sea bombardment....to the likes of which the world had never seen before.

Compared to the far more modest efforts at war's start, (on both sides) it's easy to lose perspective.

The 343 Kokutai was a late-war elite unit:

http://www.classic-books.co.uk/books/genda.html

It's strange trying to define elite. While the USMC were highly trained, indoc and motivated, I do not think they (or any Jpns ground unit) necessarily require that moniker. Maybe they do.

Another way to think of it, however, is whether or not a unit was (1) intended to be a combat unit, (2) had specialized training, that was otherwise unusual for the nation fielding them, (3) used special weapons or tactics, or (4) was indoctrinated to welcome exceptionally hazardous work.

The USMC and some SNLF certainly qualify on 2 and 4, when the task is amphibious landings, but they're not what I think of when I think "elites." Instead, I think of combat engineers, paratroop or glider insertion forces, commandoes or other similar special forces like US army rangers or navy seals, task specific groups like Gallery's H-K CVE TF (his stands out in my mind because of the intensive ship-to-ship boarding training), RAF pathfinders, Doolittle's raiders. Undoubtedly others as well.

Merely having a good combat record does not seem to me to qualify, although if we were talking in game terms, certainly such units would have better morale.

Comments welcome.

Hi, The Japanese Paratroops were Elite troops. The 'Rgt' was really a small Bn and the largest drop was only around 400 troops. They were considered 'Raiders' (I think the name of the unit translates to 'raider') Their main missions were to drop behind enemy lines in support of sea landings, capture of enemy airfields, and landing on enemy airfields to destroy enemy aircraft.
(the last drop was in late 44 I think) I think the unit was enlarged during the war, I'll have to dig to find out total TOE for any period.

the last drop was in late 44 I think) I think the unit was enlarged during the war, I'll have to dig to find out total TOE for any period.

This was on an airfield in the Phillipines. "Into the Rising Sun" has some interesting first person accounts of this raid from the American perspective. I dont recall the name of the airfield.

It's strange trying to define elite. While the USMC were highly trained, indoc and motivated, I do not think they (or any Jpns ground unit) necessarily require that moniker. Maybe they do.

I agree, just dont try telling a Marine this. One reason for the Raider's being disbanded was that, according to a Marine Corps General, "You can't have an elite force within an elite force." I'm sure there were other more tangible reasons for that decision, though.

Originally posted by Howard Mitchell
The 343 Kokutai was a late-war elite unit:

http://www.classic-books.co.uk/books/genda.html

Yes of course the pre-war Naval aviators were elite by anyones
standard. An average of 3000hours flight time.
They must have LIVED in their planes.

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, The Japanese Paratroops were Elite troops. The 'Rgt' was really a small Bn and the largest drop was only around 400 troops. They were considered 'Raiders' (I think the name of the unit translates to 'raider') Their main missions were to drop behind enemy lines in support of sea landings, capture of enemy airfields, and landing on enemy airfields to destroy enemy aircraft.
(the last drop was in late 44 I think) I think the unit was enlarged during the war, I'll have to dig to find out total TOE for any period.

Yes, you are right. I think they dropped at Massakar?
To capture the Oilfields?

I had forgotten. They didnt use them alot. I wonder why?
(no idea really)

Isn't it funny that we can point to, and even surprisingly agree, if a unit is elite or not. But when tasked with answering "What is elite?" it's hard for us to qualify it.

Is it experience? Is it specialized training? Is it command structure? Is it utilization? Is it esprit-de-corps?

I think it's where a unit is excelling in all of these these qualities at once, that allow us to define it as elite.

(* shrug *)
-F-

Originally posted by Feinder
Isn't it funny that we can point to, and even surprisingly agree, if a unit is elite or not. But when tasked with answering "What is elite?" it's hard for us to qualify it.

Is it experience? Is it specialized training? Is it command structure? Is it utilization? Is it esprit-de-corps?

I think it's where a unit is excelling in all of these these qualities at once, that allow us to define it as elite.

(* shrug *)
-F-

Well training is important, but without experience it is just words. Performance should be a factor. A mere infantry unit can prove itself elite by holding ground, gaining ground, fighting to the end. in terms of wargaming, elite designation must rely on experience in combat.

Originally posted by Drex
Well training is important, but without experience it is just words. Performance should be a factor. A mere infantry unit can prove itself elite by holding ground, gaining ground, fighting to the end. in terms of wargaming, elite designation must rely on experience in combat.

I dont know. Most people think Darby's Rangers were elite,
But according to the movie they were all w/o combat exp.

Truthfull it IS hard to evaluate.

Well we have our marines, we have our airbourne, our rangers, Seals and other Special forces. They can all be considered "Elite " in terms of training - some more so than others. But in the final analysis, it is the unit's performance against the enemy that determines class. Yes the Ranger or Seal will be expected to perform at the highest level, but the run-of -the-mill platoon can perform at the highest level. "Elite" is an elusive standard but still a reachable one.

Hi, Elite units will also be given missions normal units cannot accomplish.
They will be more selective in members (many normal trained troops will fail the requirements)

Thus a unit composed of troops with physical and performance characterizes higher then what the average unit accepts can be considered Elite. Units that regularly exceed other units can be given 'titles' such as Guard. These units will also be known by their presence on battlefields by their routinely being up front as the assault troops and will receive the best equipment and replacements.

Elite then has at least three meanings.
1. The best troops a nation has. (They might still be poor troops by comparsion to other troops world wide)
2. Troops of a quality higher then what exists as standard world wide and higher then that nation's normal.
3. Troops that routinely out preform other troops in combat and aquire a reputation for doing so.

Yeah i'd say elite status is definitely a combination of factors - training, experience in actual combat. Also i'd say there is a mental side to it and a mystical side to it. E.g. 1SS and 12SS Panzer divisions were highly trained and experienced in combat come Normandy. However, there are other elements to it. They BELIEVED they were elite and had absolute confidence in their abilities. The Allies also regarded them as elite creating a mythical/mental element to it. I know this is a European example but nonetheless an example that fits the elite status.

So perhaps its more of an ascribed status according to personal factors - training, combat experience, belief and external factors - propaganda, enemy fear/opinion - rather than a quantifiable one?

This is a very interesting discussion and I would like to add my two cents worth. Elite to me boils down to two simple factors, training and experience. What made the 101st Airborne Division an elite unit in Normandy 1944? The unit had no combat experience but their training was intense and they were an all-volunteer unit. Comments like, “the enemy has us surrounded. The poor bastards.” Reflect the training the unit underwent before it shipped overseas. They had trained to fight in situations where they would be cut off and with out help. When it happened they were trained how to react and acted accordingly.

National psyche to me does not translate into elite per say. The Japanese as a whole looked at military matters differently. They worked more along the lines of not disgracing your unit, your family, or most important your Emperor, who was in effect a god. This is a difficult concept for Westerns to understand fully. Most armies use a variation of not falling your buddy or your unit but the Japanese were able to use it to an extreme level. The Japanese officers on Guadalcanal upon being informed that they were evacuating decided initially to fight to the death or commit mass suicide rather than leave the island.. It was only when the messenger informed them that the Emperor had personally ordered their withdrawal that they followed through with the command. Does this make them fanatical or elite? In my mind it made them fanatical. And there is an important distinction between the two though at times the two may come hand in hand.

At some things the Japanese were better trained than the Marines. First, they were better night fighters. Second, they were better at camouflage. But almost without exception the Japanese did not organize their military into elite units. Were some units trained as shock units? Yes. That might have made them elite except for one thing. Japanese soldiers were never trained to take the initiative. Once a plan was decided it was carried through no matter what. Occasionally an officer might make a change in a plan or react differently than the plan dictated but that was a very rare occurrence. This factor more than anything else made it nearly impossible for the Japanese to have elite units. Elite units are the ones that fight harder and react smarter than their countrymen when the going gets tough.

This story illustrates my point, at the beginning of the Guadalcanal campaign the Japanese decided to send the Ichiki Detachment (named after its commander, who had been slated initially to spearhead the landings at Midway) to seize the Tenaru River and hold it against what was thought to be a small American detachment. After landing and engaging the Americans his unit was slaughtered for two main reasons first, he discounted local intelligence that indicated a larger enemy force than his and secondly, his orders were to size the river so that was what he was going to do.

By most accounts Col. Ichiki was a highly trained and motivated officer as were his men. They specialized in assault tactics. But were they led in an elite manner? Did they fight in an elite manner? The answer on both accounts was no. I remember seeing an interview with a Japanese Ace (I do not remember who) and one of the things he mentioned was that Japanese pilots did not place near the importance in being an Ace (shooting down five or more opponents) that Western air forces did. To do so was counter productive to the group as a whole in their mind. I think the whole concept of elite to the Japanese of the 1940’s has no comparison to Western militaries. Many would then ask what about the code of Bushido or the Samurai? The Bushido code as it was interpreted by the 20th century applied to all military personnel. If it applies to every one it cannot be elite. As for the Samurai tradition by World War two it had been expanded to cover the officer class of the Japanese military. Again, how could that make them elite if it applied to everyone of a certain group? So to ask if the Japanese had elite units would only work if the Japanese had a Western mentality. They did not. They had highly motivated and dedicated troops but that does not make them elite in a Western sense of the word.