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I noticed while viewing one of the games AAR's, that the Pre-Dreadnoughts are not a ship type. The name still appears as per WW2 as Battleship? But I'm pleased to see that Heavy Cruisers are now Armoured Cruisers which is the correct terminology for the era.

Ship types should be as follows:

Dreadnought
Battlecruiser
Pre-Dreadnought
Armoured Cruiser
Light Cruiser
Destroyer

For most people, this will not be an issue, but for anyone with an interest in naval matters of WW1 Dreadnought and Pre-Dreadnought is what it should be just saying. Anyway come 5th December when the game gets released I will be busy in the editor changing the names to what they should be.[:)]

There was a MOD for the WW2 game which gave Battlegroups.

Submarines were in groups or Wolfpacks, the BBs and BCs were clubbed LCs to form Heavy battlegroups and BCs with DDs and so on.
That was a great NAVAL MOD and would be awesome to have in WW1.

<Never mind>

HMS Dreadnought (1906)


HMS Dreadnought was a Royal Navy battleship that revolutionized naval power. Dreadnought's name and the class of battleships named after her means "a fearless person". Dreadnought's entry into service in 1906 represented such an advance in naval technology that her name came to be associated with an entire generation of battleships, the "dreadnoughts", as well as the class of ships named after her. Likewise, the generation of ships she made obsolete became known as "pre-dreadnoughts". Admiral Sir John "Jacky" Fisher, First Sea Lord of the Board of Admiralty, is credited as the father of Dreadnought. Shortly after he assumed office, he ordered design studies for a battleship armed solely with 12 in (305 mm) guns and a speed of 21 knots (39 km/h; 24 mph). He convened a "Committee on Designs" to evaluate the alternative designs and to assist in the detailed design work.

Dreadnought was the first battleship of her era to have a uniform main battery, rather than having a few large guns complemented by a heavy secondary armament of smaller guns. She was also the first capital ship to be powered by steam turbines, making her the fastest battleship in the world at the time of her completion. Her launch helped spark a naval arms race as navies around the world, particularly the German Imperial Navy, rushed to match it in the build-up to the First World War.


The most powerful surface ship type is the Dreadnought, followed by the Battlecruiser, the Pre-Dreadnought slips into third place then comes the Armoured Cruiser, Light Cruiser, and Destroyer, etc. The main reason these correct era terminologies are not being applied is that it would entail extra work behind the scene changing unit ARTWORK!

I always thought that if you want to do something you might as well do it to the best of your ability, and not say that will do, as I can't be bothered changing it because it is to much work for very little gain. Well, I say it detracts from the final product, and if corners are cut on this what other things have been swept under the carpet? I'm being hyper-critical because I love these games, and attention to detail is a big thing in my eyes if you are going to do it right is all I'm saying.

Was a pre-Dreadnought called a pre-Dreadnought after 1906 and during WW1?
Or is pre-Dreadnought a more modern distinction?

Do we have to include super-Dreadnoughts too, as not all Dreadnoughts are created equally and Battleships continued to evolve after Dreadnought.

I started a reply earlier, but could not get the wording right.

Yes, there is Dreadnought and pre-Dreadnought, but that does not automatically make the use of Battleship for pre-Dreadnought ships wrong, at least not for WW1.

How did the RN distinguish its Battleships before and during WW1?

As most of my naval books are no easily accessible I have pulled this from the net:

HMS Royal Sovereign of 1892. Use of the term ‘battleship’ underscores the currency of the term by this time.
The term ‘battleship’ did not re-emerge until the 1880s, as the technology settled down. Sometimes these ships were called ‘mastless battleships’ to set them apart from the old line-of-battle-ships. The Royal Navy formally adopted the term for its heaviest ships in 1887, and by the turn of the twentieth century the concept of the ‘battleship’ as the most powerful warship afloat was widespread. Some nations used related terms: the Germans, for instance, called their equivalent vessels Linienschiffe (‘line-ships’).

In this age of rapid technical change, however, terminology had trouble keeping up: the all-big-gun battleships that emerged in the first decade of the twentieth century became known as ‘dreadnoughts’ after the first British example, HMS Dreadnought. Larger types became ‘super-dreadnoughts’. Older battleships, in turn, became ‘pre-dreadnoughts’. It was temporary; the term ‘dreadnought’ fell out of use after the First World War, and such vessels again became ‘battleships’ and, on occasion, ‘fast battleships’.

https://www.navygeneralboard.com/where- ... come-from/

Battleship is not a WW2 term
Nor was Dreadnought a universal term - as in Linienschiff vs Großkampfschiff

The game is not wrong in naming Pre-Dreadnoughts just Battleships, it may just be confusing for our post WW1 minds.
...but just think that the Great War only became the First World War with the arrival of the Second World War.

On the bright side, you won’t be able to produce any new Battleships as they would be pre-WW1 design and obsolescent, so all new ships are either Dreadnoughts or Super-Dreadnoughts (well if laid down shortly before or during the war they are probably Super-Dreadnoughts only).

...the names are just fine.

We will agree to differ, this game is WW1 1914-18 In that time period all capital ships built before the launch of HMS Dreadnought 1906, were classified as Pre-Dreadnought.


Pre-dreadnought battleship


USS Texas, built-in 1892, was the first pre-dreadnought battleship of the United States Navy.
Pre-dreadnought battleships were sea-going battleships built between the mid- the too late 1880s and 1905, before the launch of HMS Dreadnought. Pre-dreadnoughts replaced the ironclad battleships of the 1870s and 1880s. Built from steel, and protected by hardened steel armour, pre-dreadnought battleships carried a main battery of very heavy guns in barbettes (open or with armoured gunhouses) supported by one or more secondary batteries of lighter weapons. They were powered by coal-fuelled triple-expansion steam engines.

In contrast to the chaotic development of ironclad warships in preceding decades, the 1890s saw navies worldwide start to build battleships to a common design as dozens of ships essentially followed the design of the British Majestic class. The similarity in appearance of battleships in the 1890s was underlined by the increasing number of ships being built. New naval powers such as Germany, Japan, and the United States–and to a lesser extent Italy and Austria-Hungary–began to establish themselves with fleets of pre-dreadnoughts, while the navies of Britain, France, and Russia expanded to meet these new threats. The decisive clash of pre-dreadnought fleets was between the Imperial Russian Navy and the Imperial Japanese Navy during the Battle of Tsushima on 27 May 1905.


HMS Ocean was typical of pre-dreadnought battleships
These battleships were abruptly made obsolete by the arrival of HMS Dreadnought in 1906. Dreadnought followed the trend in battleship design to heavier, longer-ranged guns by adopting an "all-big-gun" armament scheme of ten 12-inch guns. Her innovative steam turbine engines also made her faster. The existing pre-dreadnoughts were decisively outclassed, and new and more powerful battleships were from then on known as dreadnoughts while the ships that had been laid down before were designated pre-dreadnoughts.


UPDATE: This screenshot is taken from the World At War Editor and I have highlighted in colour what is wrong with the ship types for WW2 1939-45 ( As I have said previously I love these games and I want them to be as good as they can be )

You want these clearly defined post war definitions for your game experience, including Fast Battleships, that’s of course fine.
...nugh said.

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53]
The game is not wrong in naming Pre-Dreadnoughts just Battleships, it may just be confusing for our post WW1 minds.

Of course both Dreadnoughts and Pre-Dreadnoughts are "battleships". It's not the end of the world if the game calls Dreadnoughts "dreadnoughts" and pre-Dreadnoughts "battleships", though.

(The term "pre-dreadnought" was well in use, at least in English, in the WW1 period)

ORIGINAL: The Land

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53]
The game is not wrong in naming Pre-Dreadnoughts just Battleships, it may just be confusing for our post WW1 minds.

Of course both Dreadnoughts and Pre-Dreadnoughts are "battleships". It's not the end of the world if the game calls Dreadnoughts "dreadnoughts" and pre-Dreadnoughts "battleships", though.

(The term "pre-dreadnought" was well in use, at least in English, in the WW1 period)

Now that latter part, not to be childish but out of intresest, I’d love to see some period reference on that, not just the matter of fact statements.

There is information aplenty online here is some on the French navy: French Navy World War One

French République-class battleship

The République class consisted of a pair of pre-dreadnought battleships—République, the lead ship, and Patrie—built for the French Navy in the early 1900s.


Liberté-class battleship

The Liberté class consisted of four pre-dreadnought battleships built for the French Navy in the early 1900s. The class comprised Liberté, Justice, Vérité, and Démocratie.


Danton-class battleship

The Danton-class battleship was a class of six pre-dreadnought battleships built for the French Navy (Marine Nationale) before World War I. The ships were assigned to the Mediterranean Fleet after commissioning in 1911. After the beginning of World War I in early August 1914, five of the sister ships participated in the Battle of Antivari. They spent most of the rest of the war blockading the Straits of Otranto and the Dardanelles to prevent warships of the Central Powers from breaking out into the Mediterranean.

NB: In real terms, Battleship applies to all line of battleships, ( Pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought, and Super Dreadnought / Fast Battleship )

Those are wiki pages, not contemporary documents.
That we now classify these ships as pre-dreadnought is not up to debate.

However I was able to answer my own question.

I have a 1919 published copy of Jellicoe’s “The Grand Fleet 1914-1916: Its Creation, Development And Work” also available in current print. Although he generally seems to refer to these ships as “older Battleships” in his text, he does use the designation Pre-Dreadnought when comparing British and German fleets in an overview. The categories listed being:

Dreadnought
Pre-Dreadnought
Battlecruisers
Light cruisers
Destroyers
Airships
Cruisers

In short Pre-Dreadnought is a contemporary designation, at least based on a secondary source.

For as much as I like named Battleships etc in the game, I think the game should seriously think about changing to Squadron and Flotillas?

Below is a list of British Royal Navy squadrons and Flotillas as an example of what I mean the game should adopt as standard.

Battle squadrons of the Royal Navy


1st Battle Squadron
2nd Battle Squadron
3rd Battle Squadron
4th Battle Squadron
5th Battle Squadron
6th Battle Squadron
7th Battle Squadron
8th Battle Squadron
9th Battle Squadron


Battlecruiser squadrons of the Royal Navy


1st Battlecruiser Squadron
2nd Battlecruiser Squadron
3rd Battlecruiser Squadron



Cruisers Squadrons of the Royal Navy ( Mix of Armoured Cruisers and Light Cruisers )


1st Cruiser Squadron
2nd Cruiser Squadron
3rd Cruiser Squadron
4th Cruiser Squadron
6th Cruiser Squadron
7th Cruiser Squadron
8th Cruiser Squadron
9th Cruiser Squadron
10th Cruiser Squadron
11th Cruiser Squadron
12th Cruiser Squadron



Light Cruisers Squadrons of the Royal Navy


1st Light Cruiser Squadron
2nd Light Cruiser Squadron
3rd Light Cruiser Squadron
4th Light Cruiser Squadron
5th Light Cruiser Squadron
6th Light Cruiser Squadron
7th Light Cruiser Squadron



Destroyer flotillas of the Royal Navy


1st Destroyer Flotilla
2nd Destroyer Flotilla
3rd Destroyer Flotilla
4th Destroyer Flotilla
5th Destroyer Flotilla
6th Destroyer Flotilla
7th Destroyer Flotilla
8th Destroyer Flotilla
9th Destroyer Flotilla
10th Destroyer Flotilla
11th Destroyer Flotilla
12th Destroyer Flotilla
13th Destroyer Flotilla
14th Destroyer Flotilla
15th Destroyer Flotilla



Submarine flotillas of the Royal Navy


1st Submarine Flotilla
2nd Submarine Flotilla
3rd Submarine Flotilla
4th Submarine Flotilla
5th Submarine Flotilla
6th Submarine Flotilla
7th Submarine Flotilla
8th Submarine Flotilla
9th Submarine Flotilla
10th Submarine Flotilla
11th Submarine Flotilla
12th Submarine Flotilla
13th Submarine Flotilla
14th Submarine Flotilla
15th Submarine Flotilla
16th Submarine Flotilla

Fully agree that ship formations like squadrons and flotillas fit the scale of these games much better than single ships.
IMO there is a clear mismatch in scales between land and sea units.

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

However I was able to answer my own question.

I have a 1919 published copy of Jellicoe’s “The Grand Fleet 1914-1916: Its Creation, Development And Work” also available in current print. Although he generally seems to refer to these ships as “older Battleships” in his text, he does use the designation Pre-Dreadnought when comparing British and German fleets in an overview. The categories listed being:

Dreadnought
Pre-Dreadnought
...

In short Pre-Dreadnought is a contemporary designation, at least based on a secondary source.

Great - I was going to rifle through my own sources, but now I won't....

ORIGINAL: seydlitz22513

For as much as I like named Battleships etc in the game, I think the game should seriously think about changing to Squadron and Flotillas?

I think this looks correct in terms of scale, but it's much less immersive... naming the ship counters after the flotilla flagship would be much more fun, in my view...

Google books is an amazing tool for finding contemporary sources things like military terms that evolve over time. I did a fast google books search for searching for the word pre-dreadnought in sources dating from 1905 to 1918. The first result is the Fortnightly Review, published in 1912. Further down is transcripts of British parliamentary debates from 1909, etc.

There will be a Naval Mod coming. I will be using the suggested squadrons.does anyone have the equivilant of the same for the Kriegsmsrine, French etc.?

ORIGINAL: Hairog

There will be a Naval Mod coming. I will be using the suggested squadrons.does anyone have the equivilant of the same for the Kriegsmsrine, French etc.?

Hi Hairog here is some info for Germany and France naval forces.

Battle squadrons of the High Seas Fleet


1st Battle Squadron
2nd Battle Squadron
3rd Battle Squadron
4th Battle Squadron
5th Battle Squadron
6th Battle Squadron



Battlecruiser squadrons of the High Seas Fleet


1st Scouting Group



Armoured Cruisers Squadrons of the High Seas Fleet


3rd Scouting Group
East Asiatic Division ( Mix of Armoured Cruisers and Light Cruisers )



Light Cruisers Squadrons of the High Seas Fleet


2nd Scouting Group
4th Scouting Group
5th Scouting Group
6th Scouting Group


Destroyer flotillas of the High Seas Fleet

1st Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
2nd Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
3rd Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
4th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
5th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
6th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
7th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
8th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla
9th Torpedo-Boat Flotilla



Submarine flotillas of the High Seas Fleet

1st U-BOAT Flottille
2nd U-BOAT Flottille
3rd U-BOAT Flottille
4th U-BOAT Flottille
5th U-BOAT Flottille
U-Flottille Baltic
U-Flottille Flanders I
U-Flottille Flanders II
U-Flottille Adriatic
U-Flottille Konstantinopel
U-Flottille Black Sea


=====================================================================================================

Battle squadrons of the French Navy

1st Battle Squadron
2nd Battle Squadron
3rd Battle Squadron
4th Battle Squadron


Armoured Cruisers Squadrons of the French Navy

1st Light Squadron
2nd Light Squadron


Destroyer Squadrons of the French Navy

1st Squadron
2nd Squadron
3rd Squadron
4th Squadron
5th Squadron
6th Squadron
7th Squadron
8th Squadron
9th Squadron
10th Squadron
11th Squadron
12th Squadron


Submarine Squadrons of the French Navy

1st Squadron
2nd Squadron
3rd Squadron
4th Squadron

========================================================================================================

UPDATE: Imperial Russian Navy

NB: Russia used the term Brigade for its naval formations, which equals a Squadron for other Nations!

Battle squadrons of the Russian Navy

1st Battleship Brigade ( Dreadnoughts ) Baltic Fleet
2nd Battleship Brigade ( Pre-Dreadnoughts ) Baltic Fleet

Black Sea Fleet were grouped into three 'manouevre groups' in the spring of 1915. Such groups remained the principal tactical formation until 1918.

1st Group ( Dreadnoughts ) Black Sea Fleet
2nd Group ( Pre-Dreadnoughts ) Black Sea Fleet
3rd Group ( Pre-Dreadnoughts ) Black Sea Fleet

Armoured Cruisers Squadron of the Russian Navy

1st Cruiser Brigade ( Armoured Cruiser ) Baltic Fleet


Light Cruisers Squadron of the Russian Navy

2nd Cruiser Brigade ( Protected/Light Cruiser ) Baltic Fleet


Destroyer flotillas of the Russian Navy

1st Destroyer Flotilla
2nd Destroyer Flotilla
3rd Destroyer Flotilla
4th Destroyer Flotilla
5th Destroyer Flotilla
6th Destroyer Flotilla
7th Destroyer Flotilla
8th Destroyer Flotilla
9th Destroyer Flotilla
10th Destroyer Flotilla
11th Destroyer Flotilla
12th Destroyer Flotilla
13th Destroyer Flotilla
14th Destroyer Flotilla


Submarine flotillas of the Russian Navy


1st Submarine Flotilla
2nd Submarine Flotilla
3rd Submarine Flotilla
4th Submarine Flotilla
5th Submarine Flotilla
6th Submarine Flotilla
7th Submarine Flotilla


ARCTIC FLOTILLA = 1 Pre-Dreadnought, 2 Light Cruisers, 6 Destroyers and 2 Submarines



The formation began in February 1916 in order to protect Russian commerce from Archangel from possible attack by German surface ships, submarines and minelayers.
The port of Archangel had become the most important port in Russia for the import of war supplies, raw materials and food.
German minelaying had begun as May 1915, and this created a need to defend the White Sea, and the smaller newly developed facilities in the Kola Inlet.

Fantastic seydlitz22513! Just what I needed. I'll start messing with the mod as soon as the units are finalized.

I'm seeing Torpedo-Boat Flotillas and airships as well.

The best way to think of the Naval Mod is to imagine zooming in on a fleet with individual Task Forces or Squadrons playing their roles. Most naval games have this model to simulate naval warfare. You have a large scale map to move fleets and when the fleets meet, you move to a tactical map with individual ships. In this case, it's one step up using Squadrons/Flotillas.