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Here is a partial list of the ships and their specal rules. Keep in mind this is still in the Alpha stage.

AD - Destroyer Tenders
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for destroyer type combat vessels. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.
Special Rules - When a AD with no fire or float damage and less than 50% system damage is at a base with the supplies exceeding its own supply needs, the following rules apply:
-Non-PT boat surface ships may reload torpedoes
-Destroyers are repaired at a faster rate

AE - Ammunition Ships
Mission - Ammunition ships deliver munitions to warships. Ammunition ships keep the fleet supplied with ammunition and ordnance, independently or with other combat logistic ships. Slings on ship-to-ship cables are used to deliver the ammunition.
Special Rules - A ship may replenish non-torpedo, non-mine ammo if at sea and in the same hex with an AE that is in a replenishment TF. The AE must have no fire or float damage and less than 50% system damage, and have enough operation points and supply remaining for the replenishment to be allowed.

AGC - Command Ships
Mission - Command ships provide communications and accommodations for fleet commanders and staff. Ships are equipped air and surface radars.
Special Rules - AGCs add a bonus that minimizes damage to units when they are unloading over an enemy occupied beach hex (amphibious assault). They have an amphibious value of 50. An AGC ship with the controlling HQ for an invasion loaded onboard will help minimize adverse invasion effects.

AGP - PT Boat Tenders
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for PT Boats. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.
Special Rules - When an AGP with no fire or float damage and less than 50% system damage is at a base with the supplies exceeding its own supply needs, the following rules apply:
PT boats may reload torpedoes
-PT boats are repaired at a faster rate

AK - Cargo Ships
Mission - Support type ships designed to provide general support to either combatant forces or shore based establishments.
Special Rules - AK¡¦s can load and transport resources, supplies, fuel, troops, and crated airplanes. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. AK¡¦s are the only ships that can load crated airplanes.

AO - Oilers
Mission - Support type ships designed to provide fuel for underway vessels or to forward bases.
Special Rules - AOs can only load fuel and they can be used to refuel ships at sea.

AP - Troop Transport
Mission - Ship designed to carry troops and supplies for Transport or Offensive Amphibious Operations.
Special Rules - APs can load and transport resources, supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 50.

APD - High Speed Transport
Mission - Fast small transport vessels designed to carry and unload troops and supplies rapidly at destination.
Special Rules - APDs can load and transport supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 50.

AR - Repair Ship
Mission - Ship that provides structural repairs to a damaged vessels (any type) independent of existing base facilities.
Special Rules - When a AR with no fire or float damage and less than 50% system damage is at a base with the supplies exceeding its own supply needs, the following rules apply:
-Surface ships are repaired at a faster rate

AS - Sub Tender
Mission -Ship used to provide base facilities for submarines. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.
Special Rules - When a AS with no fire or float damage and less than 50% system damage is at a base with the supplies exceeding its own supply needs, the following rules apply:
-Submarines may reload torpedoes
-Submarines are repaired at a faster rate

AV - Seaplane Tender
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for Seaplanes. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.
Special Rules - AVs add 18 aviation support points to support float planes that are based at a base in their hex. This support is not given if the ships system damage is greater than 50 or if the ship has any flotation or fire damage.

AVD - Destroyer Seaplane Tender
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for Seaplanes. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.

Special Rules - AVDs add 18 aviation support points to support float planes that are based at a base in their hex. This support is not given if the ships system damage is greater than 50 or if the ship has any flotation or fire damage.

BB - Battleship
Mission - Heavily armored big gun ship designed a surface combatant against enemy shipping, also used for bombardment of enemy shore installations. Heavily armed with light anti-aircraft batteries they are also excellent AA ships in carrier task forces.
Special Rules - None

BC - Battle Cruiser
Mission - Medium armored, big gun fast ships, can be used as AA escorts in carrier task forces, bombardment of enemy shore installations or as surface combatants against enemy shipping.
Special Rules - None

CA - Heavy Cruiser
Mission - Fast medium armored multi purpose heavy ship, can be used as AA escorts in carrier task forces, bombardment of enemy shore installations or as surface combatants against enemy shipping.
Special Rules - None

CL - Light Cruiser
Mission - Fast Lightly armored multi purpose heavy ship, can be used as AA escorts in carrier task forces, bombardment of enemy shore installations or as surface combatants against enemy shipping.
Special Rules - None

CLAA -Light Cruiser Anti-Aircraft
Mission - To provide anti-aircraft support for carrier battle groups, amphibious forces, and surface action groups.
Special Rules - None

CV - Aircraft Carrier
Mission ¡V Designed to operate aircraft at sea for offensive action against enemy land and sea forces and installations. Also provides defense against hostile aircraft.
Special Rules - The following rules apply to CV¡¦s
-No flight operations if the ship has a combined system and float damage greater then 50%.
-No flight operations if aircraft onboard exceeds 110% of capacity.
-May never carry more aircraft than twice its capacity.

CVE - Escort Carrier
Mission - Small, slower, generally mass-produced carrier intended as a convoy escort, particularly ASW escort. They can also can serve as a training ships or plane transport ships. Generally lightly armed and armored, not intended for operation against enemy surface or air threats.
Special Rules - The following rules apply to CVE¡¦s
-No flight operations if the ship has a combined system and float damage greater then 50%.
-No flight operations if aircraft onboard exceeds 110% of capacity.
-May never carry more aircraft than twice its capacity.

CVL - Aircraft Carrier Light
Mission - A smaller fleet carrier operating the full range of aircraft operated by a contemporary fleet carrier, but fewer of them. Capable of operating tactically with fleet carriers. Differs from a CVE primarily in being intended for offensive operations, and thus having higher speed and greater armament.

Special Rules - The following rules apply to CVL¡¦s
-No flight operations if the ship has a combined system and float damage greater then 50%.
-No flight operations if aircraft onboard exceeds 110% of capacity.
-May never carry more aircraft than twice its capacity.

DD - Destroyer
Mission - Fast multi purpose lightly armored ships designed as AA and ASW escorts for main fleet units as well as for convoys and underway replenishment groups. Also provides escort and gunfire support for amphibious groups, May operate independently as surface warfare vessels.
Special Rules - None

DE - Destroyer Escorts
Mission - Slower lightly armored ships, Primary role is ASW & AA escort for slower convoys and underway replenishment groups
Special Rules - None

DM - Destroyer (Minelayer)
Mission - Converted destroyers designed for fast laying both offensive and defensive anti shipping (Surface and Submerged) mine fields.
Special Rules - If the DM is in a Mine Warfare TF with Retirement Allowed orders, the ship will attempt to lay a minefield in the destination hex.

DMS - Destroyer (Mine Sweeper)
Mission - Converted destroyers designed to sweep (Clear) minefields.
Special Rules - If the DMS is in a Mine Warfare TF, it will attempt to clear a minefield in the destination hex.

LCI - Landing Craft (Infantry)
Mission - Landing craft are used by amphibious forces to transport equipment and troops to the shore. Landing Craft (Infantry) are capable of troops and their equipment from amphibious assault ships to beachheads or piers. LCI's feature a bow ramp for onload and offload. May also be used to carry supply and fuel.
Special Rules - LCIs can load and transport supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 75.

LCI (M)- Landing Craft (Mortar Support)
Mission - Landing craft are used by amphibious forces to provide fire support for amphibious assaults.
Special Rules - ??

LCI (R) - Landing Craft (Rocket Support)
Mission - Landing craft are used by amphibious forces to provide fire support for amphibious assaults.
Special Rules -??

LCM - Landing Craft Mechanized
Mission - Landing craft are capable of transporting tracked or wheeled vehicles and troops from amphibious assault ships to beachheads or piers. LCM's feature a bow ramp for onload and offload. May also be used to carry supply and fuel.
Special Rules - LCM¡¦s can load and transport supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 75.

LCS (L) - Landing Craft (??)
Mission - Landing craft are used by amphibious forces to provide fire support for amphibious assaults.
Special Rules - (??)

LCVP - Landing Craft (Vehicle Personnel)
Mission - Landing craft are used by amphibious forces to transport troops and vehicles to the shore. Landing Craft (Infantry) are capable of troops and their equipment from amphibious assault ships to beachheads. May also be used to carry supply and fuel.
Special Rules - LCVPs can load and transport supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 75.

LSD - Landing Ship (Dock)
Mission - Dock Landing Ships support amphibious operations including landings via landing craft onto hostile shores. These ships transport and launch amphibious craft and vehicles with their crews and embarked personnel in amphibious assault operations. May also be used to carry supply and fuel.
Special Rules - LSDs can load and transport supplies, fuel, and troops. When loading fuel, they will use up two capacity points for every point of fuel loaded. They have an amphibious value of 100.

Originally posted by Kid
Here is a partial list of the ships and their specal rules.

This is just the "partial" list? I love the idea of the AE's, and I would say that the IJN player will love the sub tenders!

Coolness.
-F-

Will there be WAGCs and AGCs? (Coat Guard high endurance cutters, command, and USN Auxilary Gun vessels, Command). These should increase the effectiveness of shore bombardment and airstrikes when assaulting islands.

For a list, see the AGC Flagship Alliance page:

http://www.geocities.com/g905/agc1.htm

Also, the CMs (Cruiser Minelayer). Ex: USS Terror.

DEs should have favorable bonuses when attacking submarines.

Nice ship list. Very nice. Again, I have the question on radar pickets (see my other thread for more info) but I also am wondering, will Japanese subs carry aircraft now? While they weren't used to good effect, the fact that 1/3 of them had aircraft is significant. Just a question.

Landing craft????. This game is going to have landing craft? Are we going to load each individual boat with troops and equipment and send them to the beach? I dont know about anyone else but landing craft in a game of this scope seems a little much. JMHO

Originally posted by Tankerace
Nice ship list. Very nice. (1) Again, I have the question on radar pickets (see my other thread for more info) but I also am wondering, (2) will Japanese subs carry aircraft now? While they weren't used to good effect, the fact that 1/3 of them had aircraft is significant. Just a question.

1. I don't know. I sure ships that were upgraded iwth radars will be up graded in the game. How they are used will be up to the player.

2. No they do not.

Originally posted by TIMJOT
Landing craft????. This game is going to have landing craft? Are we going to load each individual boat with troops and equipment and send them to the beach? I dont know about anyone else but landing craft in a game of this scope seems a little much. JMHO

We have not got that far yet. I have some ideas on how to handle this but they are still tucked away in my head. I'm sure Gary and Joel also have some ideas but we just are not at that stage yet.

Rick

Originally posted by TIMJOT
Landing craft????. This game is going to have landing craft? Are we going to load each individual boat with troops and equipment and send them to the beach? I dont know about anyone else but landing craft in a game of this scope seems a little much. JMHO

I agree with this completely, but would like to add that I am unsatisfied with UV's handling of amphibious invasions. A better differentiation between the roles of APs and AKs is called for, I think, and we need to see clearer definition of the roles of other ships, as well, in light of the realities presented by execution of amphibious operations. UV gives little guidance in the use of LSTs, LCIs, LSDs, LCVPs, and the like, but WITP, in my estimation, has to clarify how these vessels, in conjunction with other "special-design" ships like CVEs, are used. The carrying of landing craft by assault transports needs to be treated in more detail, in my estimation.

I am dissatisfied with the scheme (which, I think, comes from GGs earlier games like PW, WITSP, and CF) that merely requires you to "stack some transports together, load them with troops and supplies, and send them off to invade somewhere." Amphibious operations were difficult and intricate. I want my Pacific War simulations to demand me to be competent at understanding and executing them. That's a big part of the fun for me (both as player and student of history - note that I do not arrogate to myself the condescending title of "historian").

note that I do not arrogate to myself the condescending title of "historian"



Easy Paternaski... my father's job description for years was "historian", until he was moved up into the NPS' regional offices with duties involving more than one battlefield...

Originally posted by bradfordkay
note that I do not arrogate to myself the condescending title of "historian"



Easy Paternaski... my father's job description for years was "historian", until he was moved up into the NPS' regional offices with duties involving more than one battlefield...

No prob - my comment was directed humorously to the sensitivities of those on these forums who tolerate, to the degree possible, the resident "troll" who insists on characterizing himself as a "historian." I have nothing but respect for the authentic, which I am sure your father was.

okay... I recognized the dig at our friend, but felt the familial duty to defend the title...it's only natural since my early life was centered around dad's career (growing up in a house with bloodstained floors from CW causualties, loading up the family in the microbus to take the Saturday drive to another park, stopping at every historical marker, laughing when dad poked a hole in the dining room ceiling with the bayonet from his Brown Bess...). Now I find myself doing many of the same things...

Originally posted by Kid
We have not got that far yet. I have some ideas on how to handle this but they are still tucked away in my head. I'm sure Gary and Joel also have some ideas but we just are not at that stage yet.

Rick

Thanks for the clarification. Just think handling hundreds of landing craft would be too unwieldy. I understand that the shortage of such craft dictated how, when and where ampib attacks could take place so its important that it is somehow modeled. Maybe it could be modeled abstractly with some kind of ampib op points.

Thanks again for the feedback

Some of those "landing craft" were in fact sea going vessels - I have no problems with their inclusion into the game. I wonder how the other craft will be handled though...

Guess I'll just have to wait for it to clear itself up...

Yes, particularly LCD's and LCS's. Maybe haveing these types of ships in a transport TF simply has the effect of speeding up disembaktion, which would surfice to abstractly simulate the use of all the various types of smaller LC's.

Still think some sort of limited ampib op resource point system works. This would force a player to hoard resouce points to mount a major ampib assault, while correspondingly prevent a player from unrealistically mounting a ridiculous number of ampib operations willy nilly all over the map. Depending how and if production is going to be handled, a player could allocate additional resources to ampib ops to increase the number points at his disposal.

Just a thought

I would prefer an "automated deploy" invasion system that wouldn't be that complex, but certainly harder to achieve.

IE. You load up your transports with troops and supplies and send them off to hit the beach with orders to "Invade" or "Assault" or something that isn't merely "transport". The turn they arrive at the beach they then loose some time getting organised and deploying (as in pressing the create barges button) all the landing craft required to land the troops, or as many as that number of ships could support etc.

Landing craft then make the run at the shore and even if 50 LCs = 1 game unit, I'd still be ok with it. All you'd need to have was the Transports "locked" into the invasion hex as well as the LCs in the hex - troop transfer rates seem about right to me in UV at the moment, but we could tweak them to simulate more LCs or fewer LCs available to transfer mena nd equipment etc. etc.

Now here is where it gets interesting: if an enemy surface TF enters the hex (and doesn't get beaten off by friend surface TFs) they get to do combat vs the transports AND the LCs with all sorts of big bonuses and advantages.

If Yamato had been able to really get amongst the landings at Leyte it would have been all over for the guys in the landing craft.

Then you could put CVEs or warships in amongst that invasion TF, and they could add firepower bonuses to the troops ashore (instead of the cumbersome bombardment TF option that doesn't really help with invasions while they're going on etc.).

The most important part of this (for me) is that once you send an invasion TF to a destination to invade - ITS DESTINATION CANNOT BE CHANGED. It can be recalled to base and the invasion called off - but you can't decide halfway you'd much prefer to invade somewhere else - or at least, if you did, your troops and vehicles would be at a disadvantage as far as maps, preperations etc. go.

At the moment just "transporting" troops is too simple - but works well enough as far as the complexity level goes. I don't want more complex, just a little bit harder for the invader.

I like Luskan's thoughts there. I was thinking that LCs would be transported in the same manner as PTs and barges. They should take up cargo space, but when deployed they improve the unloading rates tremendously. Maybe there should also be the ability to reload them after the invasion (a few left behind to act as local barges, but the majority go back into the pool for the next big invasion).

Simple ideas stand a better chance of getting implemented.

Originally posted by Kid
Simple ideas stand a better chance of getting implemented.

Then I think Luskan is on the right track. Some sort of variation of the current barge/PT creation system would seem to be the most simple. But I think there needs some sort of auto load/unload system, on the lines of the current barge hub system in UV (an amphib. hub if you will). That way the LCs would automatically run in continual cycle within the target hex, until all the ships are unloaded. Like barges/PTs there would be a limited pool to draw upon and once an amphib op is complete the LCs could be disbanded and returned to the pool.

Something along these lines could be easily implemented within the current game system.

Originally posted by Kid
AV - Seaplane Tender
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for Seaplanes. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.
Special Rules - AVs add 18 aviation support points to support float planes that are based at a base in their hex. This support is not given if the ships system damage is greater than 50 or if the ship has any flotation or fire damage.

AVD - Destroyer Seaplane Tender
Mission - Ship used to provide base facilities for Seaplanes. Provides, accommodation for staff, crews, light repair, training and resupply facilities.

Special Rules - AVDs add 18 aviation support points to support float planes that are based at a base in their hex. This support is not given if the ships system damage is greater than 50 or if the ship has any flotation or fire damage.

There was actually a slight difference in intented duty for AV and AVD/AVP. AVs were intended to tend about a squadron of PBY (12) in a rear area reasonably free of enemy attack (especially air attack). AVD/AVP were intended to tend a section of PBY (usually 4) or some number of other small float planes in a forward area that might be subject to enemy attack. Both types were capable of establishing an advanced based at any sheltered point, even if there were no other facilities present. The purpose-built AVs were flat-bottomed so they could enter shallow bays and inlets.

Based on fuel and ordnance storage alone an AVD would be able to tend fewer aircraft for a shorter period. Also an AV had much more extensive maintenance and repair facilities. Perhaps a smaller number of support points for AVD (say 1/2 or 1/3 of an AV) instead of 18 for both types.


Also of note:
[URL=http://]http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... =historian[/URL]

Don Bowen