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Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:56 pm
by AlbertN
Quite simple - Weather affects only how much a Unit regains - first and foremost.

Presently some units do lose effectiveness even if they stay static, do nothing, are not attacked at all, depending on the weather.

That is worth for a unit in the Eastfront that is hugging the enemy (as per being adjacent) as much as a unit manning the a port somewhere, without any enemy unit in close range.

So suggestion nr. 1 is that Weather affects only how much a unit gains in Effectiveness, and not their total. (So at best a unit in bad weather gains 0 effectiveness, but it never risks to -lose- effectiveness just by being in bad weather. Loss of effectiveness comes from attacking, being attacked, moving, etc...)

Suggestion nr. 2 is that the Base effectiveness recovery happens at the end of the math, and it is a pure and absolute value. (The 6%) not affected by other modifiers.

Suggestion nr. 3 is an 'End of Turn' recovery phase, that works only for units that have not spent a single Operation Point the whole turn, and are not adjacent to enemy units. (It is a repeat of the Start of Turn one, but it mirrors the fact units are resting actually. They need not to move, not to do -anything- at all, and not even being in Enemy ZoC).

RE: Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:26 pm
by TrogusP96
Mr. _Slith,

See table on page 69.

The effectiveness variable is one of the best features. I noted that Alvaro has Dunnigan's How to Make War and he told me he was familiar with it. Dunnigan has daily attrition tables for various intensities of combat. You know certain generals could have an administrative factor instead of just the usual combat ones to offset this. As I understand it there are factors that degrade effectiveness and other factors that effect its recovery. I agree that proximity to the enemy is one and would encourage pulling units out of the line. I suppose the table on page 69 could contain the actions that cause losses of effectiveness such as air attacks. I know it happens but not how much. Alvaro has said this is to be discovered. Since movement causes effectiveness loss doesn't that cancel recovery?
Many things seem to be under the hood. Perhaps this is.
Suggestion 3 does make sense because in war games no pulls units out of the line.

For instance on page 64 we have
"Effectiveness Modifier – The total of supply is discounted by how high in effectiveness a unit is. The less effectiveness it has, the more it recovers as part of the full amount. This reflects normal wear and tear usage of supplies and parts, soldiers getting ill, errors in logistics."

Since this in the supply section I suppose this means effectiveness affects supply recovery but the formula is not disclosed. Should it be? and then the same Section 12 entitle Supply contains sections on effectiveness recovery.

RE: Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:39 pm
by AlbertN
Alvaro posted the formula - but pratically the higher you are in effectiveness, the less you gain.

Like if you are at 10% effectiveness before the recovery step, your unit recovers 90% of what it is the math for the recovery.
If a unit is 50% effectiveness, it recovers 50% of the same math.
If it is at 90%, only 10%.

So pratically if you have Basic 6, HQ 4, and let's say Rail Supply at 9 (thus 18), the recovery math before weather is 28. (Think max is 30 and that's in natural supply sources - pratically your production cities).

The rest is a bit cloudy but I've noticed that troops that are static, not under attack or anything in snow or the like -lose- effectiveness despite doing absolutely nothing, and being left unmolested.
That I think it's plainly wrong.

RE: Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:06 pm
by AlvaroSousa
The scenario you are talking about only happens in snow or blizzard conditions. Blizzard is only in Russia.

Scenario 1 - group of 1,000 men is in 70 degree weather with their planes, tanks, rifles, and guns. It is sunny and a nice day. How much fatigue do they accumulate and morale they lose in these conditions after 2 weeks.

Scenario 2 - same group of men is in -15 degree weather and it's snowing. Tell me now the impact on their planes, tanks, rifles, and guns? How fatigued would you be sitting outside in this kind of weather. How would your morale be affected?

Would the 2nd group effectively need more supplies to keep equipment running and stay physically healthy or less?

Now say the 2nd group is in the mountains relying on trucks from the rail head to bring them supplies? How many trucks would break on the way? Would they be delayed?

As the Germans you should be preparing for this scenario in the winter months in Russia. You weigh in if you should stop attacking, build up effectiveness, and wait out a counter attack. That is why you have penalties for winter.

RE: Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:27 pm
by Michael T
Blizzard is only in Russia.

Actually there are a few hexes along the German-Russia border in Greater Germany that get blizzard. I found out the hard way when I was deploying for Barbarossa. Those units plummeted in effectiveness before the war even started.

@Alvaro you seem to be unaware that as the war progressed the blizzard conditions that so badly effected German units in Russia in 1941 were by large totally mitigated by 1944.

I don't know WIF rules, but surely that game recognizes that 1941 blizzard was the worst case and from 42 on it became less of an issue. This is modeled in Third Reich and AWAW.

WarPlan is unique in that it punishes the Germans very harshly right through the whole war in respect to blizzard penalties.

I like the effects for 1941, but from 1942 on they should become less and less and zero out by 1944.

RE: Suggesting Effectiveness gain / loss changes

Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:08 pm
by AlbertN
WiF has no 'first winter in Russia' rules at all.
It has winter rules that work smoothly and adequately and tries to keep to the minimum 'special rules' for one shot occasions. There are winterized units that can soak off or even bring to positive the baseline penalties of the Snow / Blizzard (Namely, quality Soviet troops, mountain units in general, Scandinavian troops), and snows reduce supply / halves bombing factors for planes, etc.
It is countered by the fact that Soviets can easily avoid any nastyness from the Surprise Attack though by deploying straight away behind their selected rivers.

There are quite a few games around that work well without grand special rules for First Winter, and basic rules on Surprise.

Problem here in Warplan is that I've found myself litterally moving a dozen of pieces a turn and clicking pass for pratically all turns of '42 and subsequent ones til Allied landing.
Be it lack of oil, lack of manpower, lack of ready troops - I felt that I was fighting WW1, and not WW2 anymore. The grand movements were only to 'fall back to the next line' by either Germans or Soviets, and the subsequent pursuit.