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Check this out (playing the AI at historical):


The UK is out Merchant marine if these number are correct. I currently have 11 U bots units operting almost around the clock with occasional rest for repair. This has cost me considerable U boat losses but still very much manageable. And it cost me oil. Together with a pretty active Italian Navy which I supply with 25 oil every turn, this did cause me oil troubles in Barbarossa in the fall of 1941.

Germany at his point has a stockpile of 187 oil and Italy 202. I have 12 Armor and Mech units for Germany (1 Mech is in Africa). Italy has 1 Armor and 2 Mech units (the Armor and 1 Mech are in Africa). Germany has 18 air units, 15 of which operate on the Eastern Front. Italy has 4 air units, all in the Med.

So the U boat campaign did make itself felt on the Eastern Front, but the UK is out of Merchant marine. What does this mean for the UK (I have not played the Allies yet)? And was it worth it?

I thinkI can finish the USSR off in 1942. If I have the oil...

Then you fulfilled Karl Dönitz's dream. He said you needed ~300 subs to bring the UK to her knees and you did it.

If you can send me that save. I want to take a look at it to see if the A.I. is doing something wrong.

So the U boat campaign did make itself felt on the Eastern Front, but the UK is out of Merchant marine. What does this mean for the UK (I have not played the Allies yet)? And was it worth it?

First of all - a great exercise. Most games in this genre don't allow for a meaningful U-boat campaign (meaning you can do it but it does not pay off). Would be great if War Plan is the exception. If there is a strong trade-off then this is only fair.

But I was also wondering if the lack of merchant marine actually hurts the British. As German - when I lack merchant marine for the Swedish Iron Ore transport - the Swedes make up the difference. If that is the case for the British as well then the sub war does obviously not pay off. I hope this "making up" is only available for a small missing quantity of merchantmen. (So far then biggest discrepancy I have experienced was 3 short - which is not much).

It does hurt them.

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

If you can send me that save. I want to take a look at it to see if the A.I. is doing something wrong.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oo48s0qijpuqv ... 6.sav?dl=0

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

It does hurt them.

Care to elaborate on that?

Someone asked if the lack of MM hurts the UK. Of course it does. They get resources from Canada and the Pacific.

The following describes the situation of the UK import end of 1942:

https://history.army.mil/books/70-7_08.htm (U.S. Merchant Shipping and the British Import Crisis, page 204 and 205)

"During the last quarter of 1942 imports came in at an annual rate of only about 20 million tons, which was at least 6 million tons less than the total consumption for that year. In January 1943 imports fell to the lowest point, as it proved, of the whole war-less than half the level of January 1941, nearly 42 percent less than in January 1942-and by February the British had to revise downward their estimate of the amount of imports they could expect to carry in their own shipping. ...
Food stocks had fallen by the end of 1942 to a level that would support wartime consumption for only three or four months, and for certain important items the level was even lower."

That means obviously, that at the end of 1942 the british economy was hurted seriously.
So, I think, in game dimensions the mentioned situation with only 10 merchants left should have cripped the UK long before this situation (10 of 254 is 4% left).

The question that Alvaro has not answered is, how much imports (merchants groups) are needed to maintain the UK industry and keep the population alive.
3 month of food remaining is a crisis indeed.

Look at the MM theu need to what they have extra. Look at the resources they get overseas. If you wipe it all out they get what's in England that's it and no oil

Historically England had a domestic Oil Shale production capacity equal to about 5 OIL in WarPlan terms according to League of Nations 1939 data.

So, bugger all oil, but not NO oil.

That's what my Historical Map Mod shows, anyway!

Phil McGregor

Shale in England?

If we are getting pedantic, how about no oil use for the early coal driven battleships !

Now I need to make a coal resource to accumulate.

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Now I need to make a coal resource to accumulate.

hah I wish.

Great thread, love the fact, "Battle of the Atlantic could be simulated."

5 oil won't go far for the British but a syn. oil plant down the road could be nice for her? She had the same industrial capacity as Germany or close to it? Advanced as well...coal abundant...

My Grand Dad was in the UK Merchant Marine they took the highest losses if I'm not mistaken of any branch in the UK Military. That's how effective U-boats were. I like this thread.

It proves it can be done. Similar to what the US Silent Service did to the Japanese(destroyed most of their shipping).

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

Historically England had a domestic Oil Shale production capacity equal to about 5 OIL in WarPlan terms according to League of Nations 1939 data.

So, bugger all oil, but not NO oil.

That's what my Historical Map Mod shows, anyway!

Phil McGregor

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
Shale in England?

According to the League of Nations statistical Report for 1939 the UK produced 218,000 metric tons of Benzol, some of which was used for petrol additives as an anti knock agent AND ALSO produced ~150,000 tons of oil from coal hydrogenation PLUS 131,000 tons of oil from Oil Shale ... around half of what Germany produced ... hence 5 OIL compared to Germany's 10 OIL from synthetic sources.

The link to the LoN document can be found close to the top of ...

https://history.stackexchange.com/quest ... ach-nation

Phil McGregor

Well, I'm glad it is possible to do this. I am less sure it is worth it, but at least the option is there now.

This game like most WW2 games puts too much emphasis on the U-boat war. Approximately 10% of the convoys crossing the Atlantic Ocean was attacked by U-boats and of those only about 10% of the ships were sunk. More than 99% of all Merchant shipping to and from the UK reached their destination (Blair, Clay, Jr. (1996a). Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters 1939–1942. V.I. Cassell. ISBN 978-0-304-35260-9; Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted 1942–1945. V.II. Cassell. ISBN 978-0-304-35261-6)

If the UK production was entirely dependent upon imports, then total production would have been reduced by only 1%. The following link is a good analysis of the ration between imports and domestic production

The myth that U-boats came close to crippling UK production was championed by post-war German authors, who wanted to create heroes and a sense or pride for a defeated nation, exaggerated and glorified the success of the German submariners and by during the war by Allied leaders to create a common enemy and garner sympathy from the US population in order to sway their government into joining the war (Levine, Alan J. (1991). "Was World War II a near-run thing?". In Lee, Loyd E. (ed.). World War II: crucible of the contemporary world. M. E. Sharpe. ISBN 978-0-87332-731-2).

ORIGINAL: JagWars

This game like most WW2 games puts too much emphasis on the U-boat war. Approximately 10% of the convoys crossing the Atlantic Ocean was attacked by U-boats and of those only about 10% of the ships were sunk. More than 99% of all Merchant shipping to and from the UK reached their destination (Blair, Clay, Jr. (1996a). Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunters 1939–1942. V.I. Cassell. ISBN 978-0-304-35260-9; Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted 1942–1945. V.II. Cassell. ISBN 978-0-304-35261-6)

If the UK production was entirely dependent upon imports, then total production would have been reduced by only 1%. The following link is a good analysis of the ration between imports and domestic production

The myth that U-boats came close to crippling UK production was championed by post-war German authors, who wanted to create heroes and a sense or pride for a defeated nation, exaggerated and glorified the success of the German submariners and by during the war by Allied leaders to create a common enemy and garner sympathy from the US population in order to sway their government into joining the war (Levine, Alan J. (1991). "Was World War II a near-run thing?". In Lee, Loyd E. (ed.). World War II: crucible of the contemporary world. M. E. Sharpe. ISBN 978-0-87332-731-2).

Sorry Jag, but you are drinking some sort of crazy fictional cool-aide. First of all it was no myth and it's almost always the winners that write the history, not the loser. Case and point most of the east front battles. There's a reason why the stats on the battles of Rzhev we left out for many decades after WW2. So get this fact right in your brain to start. This is so blatantly false " More than 99% of all Merchant shipping to and from the UK reached their destination" for the period of 1939-1945. If it had not been for the monumental effort of US ship building, Ultra, and the development of ASW tech, the allies merchant marine would have almost cease to be a factor. Britain was down to very low levels of oil reserves a few years into the u-boat campaign / battle of the Atlantic. You can't win a modern war without oil.

Please expand your knowledge by reading up with a few more books/authors

Terraine, John. Business in Great Waters: The U-Boat Wars, 1916-1945, London: Leo Cooper, 1989
Miller, Nathan. War at Sea - A Naval History of World War II, New York: Scribner, 1995
Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted. 1942-1945, Clay Blair, New York: Random House, 1998
Jonathan Dimbleby - The Battle of the Atlantic: How the Allies Won the War, 2015



I can get you more too if needed.