Matrix Games Forums

Is DE 104 so narrow that it only occurs on March 3 1941? It is now June 9 1941. The French surrendered last turn and all the conditions of DE 104 have been met but this DE has still not appeared?
If it is that narrow then I suggest that it be changed in the upcoming date so that if the conditions are met from March 3 1941 onward that it is activated.

event fires: On the 3rd March 1941 when London is in Allied hands, France has surrendered, both Germany and Italy are Axis and not surrendered, and Yugoslavia is aligned with the Axis but not fully mobilized.


The French surrendered in May 1941 because the Axis went all of France I guess.

I agree with you on the date, it is an additional bonus for not accepting Vichy which shouldn't exist.

Maybe DE should include Germany accepted vichy then date is fine.

Yes the Axis are using the Spain Gambit again. I am assuming that your suggestion is that if the Axis have not accepted Vichy then on March 3 1941 DE 104 should activate. I posted a couple of days ago about this but no reply from the developers. The fact that the Yugoslavia DE does not happen when the Axis player uses this strategy is confirmation how it is a win win strategy for the Axis, no downside whatsover. In our last game almost the entire southern front for the Axis consisted of Spanish and Yugoslavian units. Gibraltar fell and the game was over by 1944 with the Axis winning.
This forces the Allied player which is basically the British early in the game to spend significant amounts on diplomacy for both Spain and Yugoslavia taking away points that could be spent on research and combat units.
The French cannot hold out indefinitely in Algeria as the Axis merely concentrate air power to attrition down the French then drops a paratrooper and conducts an amphibious landing. The Brit navy cannot contest it as they will be attacked by the Axis air power based in Sicily. As I mentioned it wasn't until the end of May that the French surrendered.
This HAS to be changed in the next update so that this UNHISTORICAL strategy does not become the norm for the Axis.
Developers?

When I said southern front, I was referring to the southern front in Russia.

It is simply a must for both Britain and France to dilpo Spain early, if you want to keep it out of the war. Sure, you would rather spend the mmp's on something else, but so would your opponent. If you get a couple hits(or one big one) while you have the advantage, it helps mitigate his gains when the situation is reversed by Italy's entry and France's fall.

The Allies are supposed to take a beating at the beginning of the game, but allowing Spain to enter on the Axis side is one of the few ways the Allies can blow the game early. You must do everything you can to prevent it. It isn't just the troops, it is the extra income that is decisive. It is just not something that can be blown-off or ignored.

Just spend the money with the knowledge that he has to also. And if through rotten luck he gets Spain anyway, invade it as soon as possible because it will ultimately take more troops to defend than he gets by owning it. Turn it into a distraction and a money pit, and make him regret taking it in the first place. He can't cover every coastal city, and it is an easy place to get onto the continent within close transport range of the UK and even the US. It will require you to alter your strategy to push this angle, but if he does it, at least make him pay the price.

Markiss, so what you are saying is that it makes sense historically if the Axis player does not declare Vichy and intentionally delays the conquest of France until after March 3 1941 so Yugoslavia will not enter on the Allied side and it will be easier to bring Spain in to the fold?

It's fine to say that the Brits should spend on diplomacy but at that point in the game the German player can easily outspend the Brits. It hurts the Brits a lot more than the Germans early in the game when PP's have to spent on diplomacy because even if they declare Vichy the Germans don't invade Russia until mid 1941 anyway. Leading up to mid 1941 they will be attacking the small French forces in Africa instead of Yugoslavia and Greece. The French are obviously a weaker opponent to gain experience for their units.

If Spain gets to 30% which is only one jump from it's starting number of 12% it only costs the Germans 800 PP's and Spain joins the Axis. 800 PP's is about the cost of 3 or 4 upgraded German infantry divisions. They obviously are going to gain a lot more than 3 or 4 units for Russia with Spanish units not to mention what Yugoslavia will provide. As I mentioned, in the our just completed game, the majority of the Axis force in southern Russia were Spanish and Yugos.

There is absolutely no way the Brits can invade Spain that early in the game. It would be like Dieppe. One of the keys to a successful invasion even later in the game is to reduce cities that are part of the rail network below 5 so enemy units cannot react by operational movement. You need a heavy bomber and tactical bomber force to do that. The Allies are on the defensive even when the Yanks join in December 1941.

They also need forces to defend Cairo. You need to research anti-sub, build up the destroyers you get from the Yanks or the U-boats will run wild. I could go on but in my opinion, there is no downside for the Axis to use the Spanish Gambit. It also makes zero sense historically that the Axis are not hurt in any way, when France is not conquered until mid 1941.

"800 PP's is about the cost of 3 or 4 upgraded German infantry divisions." I obviously meant to say armies.

First of all, there is no "out-spending" anyone in diplo-ing Spain. You can only buy 3 chits if you are Britain or Germany, so income does not figure into it at that point. You can afford 150 points, all in one turn even. Without breaking a sweat. So just spend the money and end the threat, probably. He can't force the issue until Italy enters and France surrenders, as Spain will not lean Axis enough to trigger the script without France's capitulation.

It's only an issue if you don't fight back.

And if they do get it, you don't have to invade right away, just as soon as possible. Like when he is locked in a death-grip with Stalin around Moscow. Sometime when he really doesn't want to have to operate his airforce back from the east. And hopefully the US can join in soon after, especially if you can get a foothold around a couple ports.

And you don't need bombers to block the rail lines from France into Spain. Look closely, and you will see that it is possible to block the relevant lines by taking some strategic coastal cities. I know because I have done it. When the Axis player gets a little greedy and moves all the Spanish troops to the East(they just can't help themselves), these are often wide open. Hold the Pyrenees, and take your time devouring the rest. You can't do this in 1940, or maybe even 41, but it can be done.

Again, best to avoid it entirely, and much more cheaply, by just buying the diplo chits.

I'm not going to claim to know anything about the Yugo situation, that has never come up in any game I have played.

Good luck.

There are 6 ports in Spain on the Atlantic. Two of them, Cadiz and Lagos are so far south they are irrelevant The one closest to Madrid is Bilbao. I'm not sure what you are talking about in regards to blocking rail lines by taking strategic coastal cities since that means a successful invasion with multiple units, capturing a port and advancing inland. Bilbao has three rail routes leading to it and 4 cities that you would have to reduce all of them by bombing to prevent response by operational movement. They are all obviously out of range of any bomber based in England. Maybe you could risk CVs but they aren't very good at that. The Brits start at zero technology for Amphibious warfare so they would have to immediately start researching it. I don't even know how many units they could amphibious transport when they reach tech level one which would be months away, maybe one unit? That one unit would take probably 3 or 4 turns from the closest British port, Plymouth to even reach Bilbao. The other 3 ports on the west side would even take longer to reach. Amphibious transport is expensive, moves slowly and is extremely vulnerable. I don't know if it can naval cruise which is even more dangerous.

From my experience any kind of invasion requires a lot units and air support which is why invasion locations are in range of England. There is absolutely no way that the Brits could stage any invasion prior to 1943 with support from the Yanks. Even that would be dicey unless the Germans are getting clobbered in Russia.

I would garrison the three western Atlantic ports with Italian garrison units and one Italian corps in Bilbao. Unless that single invading unit can eliminate the unit defending the port in one attack they are toast because the Axis player will react with operational moves and the invading unit will have no supply.

By the way I did spend the maximum as the Allies for diplomacy but when I say the Germans can afford it more I am referring to the fact they get plunder from Poland, Belgium, and the Netherlands. Three chits gives a probability of 15% meaning that it is likely to happen within 7 turns which is less than 4 months, so unless the Axis player is incredibly unlucky some time in early 1941. Spain jumps from 12% to 33% with one success which is all the Axis needs. Yugoslavia is currently at 66% in our current game.

The fact that the Axis player can take DE 104 out of the game by pursuing this strategy means that he is not going to have to deal with Yugoslavian partisans and if he gets lucky his 3 chits might even bring Yugoslavia to his side before Barbarossa. That is exactly what happened in our last game.

I don't know if you have only tried your strategy against the AI but against a reasonably experienced human opponent you would lose every game. I never play the AI in any game since it is just a waste of time unless you use it to learn game mechanics. I have played 4 PBEM games with two friends. In my first two games against one of my friends he went the traditional Vichy France strategy and lost both. It is looking like I am going to lose this one as the Allies.

Anyway, have fun.

You need 60%, not 30%, for DE 603 (since 1.13, updated in the Strategy Guide in 1.16).

DE603 is if the Axis accepts Vichy and then attacks Algiers and yes DE 603 is now thankfully 60%.

If Axis go "all of France" the French keep their diplo chits and its close to impossible for Axis to get Spain +30%. So in Canuck's game Spain diplo was net 0% until May 1941 vs being +10% Axis June '40 - May '41.

The only advantages to DE 104 is the Greece sways 30-40% and the Axis have to commit troops. You can argue its better that Greece doesn't enter so they can join the Allies later.

If Axis declares war on Yugoslavia US & SU get the mobilization increase.

If Axis gets Yugoslavia diplomatically they don't get the experience or have to commit troops and the Allies get to diplomatically sway Sweden, Turkey & Saudi Arabia.

So not getting DE 104 really isn't that big a deal.

IMO going "all of France" is a loser for he Axis and remedies have already been addressed in other threads.

Okay, thanks for the info. I didn't know that Spain had to be 60%. I just checked and the version we are playing is 1.1603. In the game we are playing I have Casablanca garrisoned with a corps and two other infantry units adjacent. I still don't understand why DE 104 is limited to one turn. Did the "historical" situation change that much two weeks later that a coup was no longer a possibility? I also hope that the new update will include Naval Mod 3.3 in the mod folder.

Forgot to add that the manual still reads 30% for Spain which is why I thought that was the number. I guess when they have updates the documentation is not updated.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Spain has to be +30% to join Axis for "all of France" when Algiers falls. . I am sure DE 603 has to be 60% for Spain to join Axis when Algiers falls. Axis not accepting Vichy and DE 603 are different.

As I mentioned earlier, in the manual for DE 603 it indicates that Spain has to be at or greater than 30% for it to activate as long as all the other conditions are met. In the patch notes for update 1.16 it says:

"Strategy guides updated to reflect DE 603 where Germany can entice Franco to enter the war requires Spain to have a Pro-Axis leaning of 60% to fire."

However I looked at the strategy guide in the manual and don't see this. I am going to find out in the game I am playing whether it is 30% or 60% soon as Spain is at 33%. The Allies are still occupying Casablanca though.

Just checked the 1939 Storm Over Europe Strategy Guide (1.16.03). It states:

DE 603 - Germany: Entice Franco To Enter The War?
 Event fires: If France has surrendered, Italy has joined the Axis, Spain is neutral but
with at least a 60% leaning towards the Axis, Algiers and Casablanca are in Axis
hands, with a German unit within 3 hexes of Algiers, and there are no Allied troops
in France, or within 5 hexes of Oran or Casablanca.

(In fact it was changed in 1.13, but the Guide was updated later. The manual still reads 30%. Edited my earlier post)

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

I don't know if you have only tried your strategy against the AI but against a reasonably experienced human opponent you would lose every game.

Let me know if you would like to play.

Markiss, I am currently playing 5 PBEM games but I will check with some friends. I know one of them is "only" playing 3. I will let you know and if he has the time you can set up the challenge.