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How do you get a HQ out of a pocket anymore?

I thought they could displace previously?

For example, I have the Northwest Front HQ and Northwest Air Command stuck in hex X49,Y30 since Courland was isloated on the German turn 1. It has no troops, can't move and can't displace and I had no chance to move it at all. Is it stuck there until the Germans move next to it, and if they don't, is it stuck there permanently?

You cannot displace HQs out of pockets anymore. The change was made in the 1.12.00 patch and is here to stay. It was changed to reflect more realistic ways that a HQ will behave when isolated and to prevent the magical teleportation that used to happen before.

That HQ is lost but will reform and will be back in service after it is destroyed.

So that means that if the opponent doesn't displace the HQ, it will stay there indefinitly. Interesting.

ORIGINAL: joelmar

So that means that if the opponent doesn't displace the HQ, it will stay there indefinitly. Interesting.

Yes, but I don't see why an opponent would do that, unless they are using some strategy to game the system.

I think it's a case of house rules

I was about discuss this issue.

1. If the rule is here to stay, the game needs to immediately destroy the hq if left alone behind lines or have a button which will destroy the hq upon enemy contact when behind lines. (hq suicide).

Clearly some good Generals would be saved by being flown out of the pocket with some top assistants. Once the jig is up?



2. This new rules also assumes that an hq which is stuck behind lines has all of its men and equipment stuck as well. But if some of the hq's combat units are not behind the lines, then in reality some of the hq men and equipment would in fact be split too. The displace rule allowed the hq to get back to its other in supply units.

I also worry that players will alter play method to try and surround hq's.

I would go back to old rule but severely increase the % damaged in the hq upon displace.



I object!

Yeah, I had NW front rout into courland in my last game. Very tempting to leave Kuznetsov there to rot for the entire campaign but obviously that's too gamey. Doubt we'll get a fix so there should be an agreed upon rule, like 3 turns then the surrounding player must displace or something.

ORIGINAL: BrianG

I was about discuss this issue.

1. If the rule is here to stay, the game needs to immediately destroy the hq if left alone behind lines or have a button which will destroy the hq upon enemy contact when behind lines. (hq suicide).

Clearly some good Generals would be saved by being flown out of the pocket with some top assistants. Once the jig is up?

Let's discuss it then

Why should the HQ be immediately destroyed? The HQ can still provide support to the units trapped in the pocket as well as SUs. In case of the HQ being the only thing left in the pocket, then I can't imagine a fair opponent keeping the HQ there just to use gamey tactics. This can be easily solved via house rules or common sense.

Generals don't die when the HQ is destroyed although there is a chance for it. From my tests, they are alive and well and respawn with the HQ. I am guessing that the game already assumes that the leaders are flown out. The one thing that should be changed here is that HQs should arrive closer to the front and not in the Urals or Berlin since then you have to spend so much rail capacity just to get them back in the fight.

ORIGINAL: BrianG

2. This new rules also assumes that an hq which is stuck behind lines has all of its men and equipment stuck as well. But if some of the hq's combat units are not behind the lines, then in reality some of the hq men and equipment would in fact be split too. The displace rule allowed the hq to get back to its other in supply units.

I also worry that players will alter play method to try and surround hq's.

I would go back to old rule but severely increase the % damaged in the hq upon displace.

I object!

That is incorrect. When the HQ is destroyed some of its men and equipment escape just like it happens for normal units who surrender. In any case, you cannot expect to save much, especially in terms of SU, which were usually heavy guns that were abandoned in such situations.

I get where you are coming from but I don't see why this is such a big deal. A Soviet Army HQ is 4.000 men at full strength. The additional manpower multipliers that the Soviets get should be more than enough to cover such losses.

Why do you assume that players will alter their whole play style to bag HQs? They are low manpower units that are recreated easily and they don't even need to retrain. From the games perspective a HQ at 1 exp is the same as an HQ at 99 exp. The main thing that would be lost in this case is the attached SUs, but that is realistic, since you cannot expect to evacuate 210mm Howitzers from a pocket magically like it used to be in the older patches.

@eskuche:

Routing has been fixed and it should prevent the weird routing behavior that has been seen lately. Should come as part of patch 1.12.04

The change was made in the 1.12.00 patch

I can't see anything about this in 1.12.00, is it in the patch notes ?

Perhaps it helps the discussion if I add the specifics.

His 14th mech corps is stuck in an out of the way spot near the Pripyat, which is where it ended up after I destroyed the nearby tank division. I would not normally bother with cleaning this up, at least not for a while. Should one go out of their way to destroy isolated HQs if that is the house rule? Don't all isolated unit eventually surrender if left long enough?

Gamer

I think I may add option to voluntarily destroy isolated HQs.

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think I may add option to voluntarily destroy isolated HQs.

Definitely. Otherwise the Axis player can simply keep the HQs isolated for eternity to prevent their reuse.

I just did an escape with a few hq's. One issue is that you need ground combat units next to a enemy if the hq needs to pass by a enemy zoc. It can't pass even if your side controls the zoned hexes. Makes it harder to escape.

Maybe hq's should be able to move pass enemy zoc without ground unit in hex (with damage of course). This might be major change in game code so not really sure it would work.

Also I also had the NW hq and NW front rout to Corland on turn 1. If I was the germans they could stay trapped in their little corner forever. Even if its a few turns the NW front will be a mess for month?

I also worry for early game turns what happens when the Corp hq's start to disband. Will the SU's somehow head West and rejoin the Army hq's which might be surrounded or very far and almost cut off.

Later on an issue I see is how you deal with the Moscow MD. It sits on prime defensive terrain and will be non movable.

It should be possible to relocate it after September 41.

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think I may add option to voluntarily destroy isolated HQs.

Definitely. Otherwise the Axis player can simply keep the HQs isolated for eternity to prevent their reuse.

I don't know for sure in 12.3 since I have not tested this. But in other patches, units start to auto surrender starting around turn 5ish+ being cut off from supply depending on multiple factors. I haven't tested this in a while and may have changed.

I would not make it a "voluntary" destroy an isolated HQ. I would say you have to expend points to destroy them and more than normal since they are surrounded. 5 points should do the trick nicely for Corps HQ, 15 points for an Army HQ, and 20 points for a Front HQ, and god forbid the supreme HQ for 50.

To me the issue is as the Soviet player, I'm 2 for 2 in getting the Northwest Front and Northwest Air Command isolated without troops and without being able to do anything about it on turn 1 under the beta. I can see the point later on to having to pay to retrieve HQs, but on the first turn with no oppotunity having to pay 20+ AP doesn't seem right.

Oh, that's me. I'll tap it next turn. Completely forgot, and I'm out of MP in north

ORIGINAL: mmoaorrke

To me the issue is as the Soviet player, I'm 2 for 2 in getting the Northwest Front and Northwest Air Command isolated without troops and without being able to do anything about it on turn 1 under the beta. I can see the point later on to having to pay to retrieve HQs, but on the first turn with no oppotunity having to pay 20+ AP doesn't seem right.

I empathize with you. I have had the same situation happen to me.

Matrix Recruit


 

Posts: 27
Joined: 12/22/2000
Status: offline To me the issue is as the Soviet player, I'm 2 for 2 in getting the Northwest Front and Northwest Air Command isolated without troops and without being able to do anything about it on turn 1 under the beta. I can see the point later on to having to pay to retrieve HQs, but on the first turn with no oppotunity having to pay 20+ AP doesn't seem right.

the first turn rout is causing the NW hq and air hq to Corland where they get trapped. Well done by Germans.

In my game versus Tyronec the NW air HQ is still stuck at turn 8 right on the coasts edge. A small boat would be sufficient to move them as the are now at toe 31%.

Annoying. I like the AP point idea for self destruct